XM (1990, 2.0i, Y3, manual, leather) in Finland

The place to show off and tell us all about your XMs (or even other cars). Should it be a big project, or just some general pics, start your thread in here.
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Rojekti
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Re: XM (1990, 2.0i, Y3, manual, leather) in Finland

Post by Rojekti » Wed May 20, 2015 2:50 pm

xantia_v6 wrote:You have done correct testing of the static operation of the hydro active, but the ecu will dynamically to sports mode while cornering, accelerating or braking. The display does not show this, so you need to add your own warning light to see what is really happening.
Allright, thanks. A light of that sort would be interesting to have anyways.

I assume there could be good wires to steal voltage for light in the right front corner - I understood the valve gets it's electric from there but I dont know where..
XM 1990, 2.0i 8V, manual (important: black leather and wood in interior)

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White Exec
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Re: XM (1990, 2.0i, Y3, manual, leather) in Finland

Post by White Exec » Wed May 20, 2015 3:39 pm

Yes, correct. The feed for the electrovalves comes from the suspension ECU, which is located in the large plastic box behind the RH headlight.

Before letting you know which wires to tap into, could you post
- your car's RP number (painted on LH front door pillar, under the top hinge)
- the identifying text on the suspension ECU*
[*This is the metal box inside the plastic box above, and the one with TWO connectors (one black, one white) to it. Lift the ECU upwards, and you will see text labelling on one of its large sides.]

Sphere life can vary, but is typically around three years before gas pressure drops. Some newer spheres can last a bit longer, around 5 years. Very old spheres (like your 11 year old ones) are really best replaced with new, and it's best to get genuine Citroen ones. Make sure you get the right sphere for the right position on the car, and for your exact model of car.

Will be interesting to see your photo of a sphere regassing valve. These enable gas pressure to be reinjected, which should be done every 3 years roughly. If spheres have been allowed to go flat (lost all their gas) they can become damaged internally, and cannot be regassed.....hence the advice to check/regas every 3 years.

Few main Citroen garages do regassing, but it's always worth asking. Some independent Citroen specialists can do this; you'll need to google or ask around. You can do it yourself, if you are mechanically minded, but the kit to do it costs around €200-250 including a cylinder of nitrogen. You'll also need to make or buy a couple of sphere removal tools, to get the old ones off. May or may not be worth the investment for you.

Fitting the electrovalve indicator LED will allow you to know exactly when the suspension is instructed to switch to Firm. From what you describe, it looks as if most of it is working properly, but there are some things that are intended to make the system go Firm, including...
- heavily lumpy ground (believe it or not!) which causes large/sudden wheel or body movements
- sudden or large movement of the accelerator pedal
It's possible you might be getting some of this on your bumpy farm track.
Try driving this track slowly (15km/h or less) and with a gentle throttle. If the suspension stays Soft, that's a good sign.
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003

Rojekti
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Re: XM (1990, 2.0i, Y3, manual, leather) in Finland

Post by Rojekti » Wed May 20, 2015 5:27 pm

Nearest Citroen garage for me is 100km away. They take 10€ per fill, except if it's 1st fill, then 25€. That's not expensive. Spheres they estimated, would cost something between 60 to 90 € a piece. Propably installing costs will be added.

PR number, do you mean a 4 number digit? Near the hinge was "4823".
The ECU has:
Valve
Made in France
SUSPENSION
RAIDEUR VARIABLE
73800802 12V 01.90

A sphere I assume doesn't have a valve:
Image

And in the black box, I also discovered total of FIVE connectors with no home. Thought, this might be normal..?
Image

I didnt find any other mentions of the spheres than the one from 2004. Sounds a bit long time.



I also tried driving very slowly. Didn't feel any difference. Also, I tried driving faster with SPORT and with NO sport. Not sure if I felt a difference there, too. Perhaps a small one but it might be psycological.

EDIT. I test drove the same road with my Alto, the XM does a great job calming the bumps down but not completely. Maybe I'm then just imaging there's a problem and when the XM passess the MOT, then I'll get to wider and better roads and I'll be happy for it.. but the light, I'd love to install it.
XM 1990, 2.0i 8V, manual (important: black leather and wood in interior)

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Re: XM (1990, 2.0i, Y3, manual, leather) in Finland

Post by Dieselman » Wed May 20, 2015 11:19 pm

Rojekti wrote:
Since it was a nice day, I shot a time-lapse video of the event.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxVs2sE ... e=youtu.be[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxVs2sE ... e=youtu.be
I take it you weren't alone in the car...maybe with a healthily active Finnish girl... ;) :D
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White Exec
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Re: XM (1990, 2.0i, Y3, manual, leather) in Finland

Post by White Exec » Thu May 21, 2015 8:10 am

Great fun video - How to shake a cocktail!

Back to the car...

This is well worth downloading and reading: http://www.citroenkerho.fi/xantia/pdf/t ... kaopas.pdf
It's written by one of our members (Gabor), and describes really well a number of the systems used on Citroen hydropneumatic vehicles, especially suspension.

From your RP number 4823, your vehicle was built 22 Jan 1990.
The suspension system is Hydractive I (originally known as just Hydractive, but then Hydractive II arrived at RP5929 in Feb.1993).
I and II are similar, but have important differences, as Gabor's article explains.

Your H.I system has one electrovalve (II had two), located on a bracket on the right-hand rear section of the front subframe.
Under instructions from the suspension ECU, it switches the Centre spheres (one at front, one at back) in and out of the hydraulic circuit.
When electrovalve is OFF (not energised) the centre spheres are OUT of circuit, and the suspension is Firm.
When electrovalve is energised, the centre spheres are switched into the hydraulic circuit, and the suspension is Soft.


To fit an indicator lamp (or LED) - to tell when the electrovalve is on/off - you can tap into its supply wiring either at

1 - Under the car at the EV itself (two electrical connections, one is chassis earth, the other is supply)

2 - At the suspension ECU. On your car its the 15way Black connector, pin 9.
On the circuit diagram, it shows a yellow wire going to pin 9 (but check!....a needle pushed through the cable insulation will help identify connections).

>>> Note: Later EVs were of a different design (the solenoid was built in to the EV body; early ones were separate). The later type were NOT energised by a simple constant 12v DC, but received 12v for 0.5secs, followed by what looks like around 3v "holding" supply, which is actually a 1000Hz pulsed (PWM) supply, which reduces heat in the EV coil.
To be safe, and avoid damage to your EV, DO NOT feed it with a constant 12v, even for test purposes, until it can be confirmed how these early EVs were supplied.
You can judge this for yourself: Put a voltmeter on the EV supply (connections as above), and see what it reads. If 12v followed by around 3v, then it's the later pulsed supply. This can usually be heard as the valves buzzing. <<<

Test drive:
You have two choices: AUTO and SPORT.
In Sport mode, suspension will lock itself into Firm mode, but only above 30km/h (18mph). Below that, it will be Soft.
In Auto mode, system will be soft, and will only switch to Firm when the ECU tells it to.

There should be a clear difference in ride between Soft and Firm. If there isn't, then your Centre ('Hydractive') spheres need renewing, or something isn't working electrically or hydraulically. It's these two centre spheres that provide the extra softness.

BUT, and most important . . . Your photo of the front sphere . . .

Yes, the cap on the sphere is the factory fitting, and is not a refilling valve, but is where one would screw in.

Your photo shows the sphere top edge in contact with the bodywork panel above it. This should not be, but there should be an 8-10mm gap there.
This is a clear sign that the rubber-centred strut top mount is beginning to break up (the rubber shears) and is allowing the sphere and sphere mount to push upwards; if left unsorted, massive damage can occur, if the strut top bursts through the bonnet.
Front strut top failure.jpg

Normal clearances are like this:
Front sphere clearances 2.jpg
Second photo also shows a Tecnosir regassing valve (with its green dustcap) installed.
Check the clearances with the car at Normal height.

If strut tops are looking tired/stretched, avoid putting the suspension on Highest (it strains the tops) and avoid rough roads. Get the tops replaced quickly, because complete failure can be very sudden.

Plenty of info on our site about strut tops, availability, replacement, rebuild possibilities, and so on.

Hope helpful.
Keep us updated how you get on.
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Last edited by White Exec on Thu May 21, 2015 9:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003

User avatar
White Exec
Citroen God!
Posts: 6642
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:38 pm
Orga / RP numbers: RP7165
1996 2.5TD saloon, Exclusive, Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime, Sable Phenicien
Location: ex-Ealing, Cheshire, W.Sussex & Surrey. Now living in Sayalonga (Malaga, Spain)

Re: XM (1990, 2.0i, Y3, manual, leather) in Finland

Post by White Exec » Thu May 21, 2015 8:51 am

Few bits forgotten...

The regassing prices are very good, both for valve fitting and regassing spheres already fitted with valves.
Prices for new spheres are a bit high, although not outrageous.....just make sure for that money they are genuine Citroen spheres, new, boxed, and marked with Citroen logo. Some new replacements are now grey colour.

There are normally a few "unused" connectors floating around in the ECU box. Some were used for diagnostic purposes. Someone with experience of early S1 2.0i might easily be able to identify these.

By the way, early cars had electrical connections to earth/chassis which were not very reliable. The principal earthing connections are on the inner wings of the engine compartment, at the side of the ECU box, and at the side of the air filter. Early connectors were 0.25" push-on connectors, to a male tab welded to the body. These became dirty, loose, and unreliable, and were replaced (in production) by bolt-down "eye" connectors on later cars. Some early cars had their earthimg connectors upgraded or converted. Would be worth looking at what you have on the car, and cleaning up/checking that everything is clean and making good connection. Poor connections here can cause all sorts of difficult-to-diagnose faults. There are also a few more of these earthing points inside the car, in the footwells, behind the trim/carpet, a few cm above the floor, on the A-pillar/sill front end.
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003

Rojekti
Knows how to use the parking brake
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:57 pm
Location: Finland

Re: XM (1990, 2.0i, Y3, manual, leather) in Finland

Post by Rojekti » Thu May 21, 2015 2:54 pm

Well, I dont comment about activities in the XM's interior. It is very cosy car, thought.



Whoa there, you had me scared for a second. Luckily, I shot that photo in UP-position. When in LOW, the gap was more like 20 mm and in NORMAL, it was 8-10mm. I heard of that condition and were earlier a bit scared if that might happen to my XM but I didn't yet know how to diagnose it.

Thanks for the info. Gotta go trought that stuff better soon. Just to add: I dont notice any moment of change when I drive the car. Haven't felt the "soft" in any circumstances or any other "change" in the suspension. Apparently, the change of state is very fast when it happens? If it is as radical as with "static test" (keys off, doors shut, 30sec, etc), I havent noticed ANYTHING like that.

Of course, it could just be that spheres are flat?

I checked the connections to chassis. Some of them were renewed, I also found some of the "original" connectors. They seemed okay. Gotta give them a bit CRC at some point.

Just being quick here as cow herd awaits me - just a moment ago, a cloud of smoke came out of the running car. I shut it down. There were a wire that had smelted, hot thoroughly. It comes from behind the engine, under the car. Same wire had total of 4 wires. They went to a relay in the black box in right - or at least one of them went. Gotta change the whole wire. It heated when I started the engine, nothing there when engine was off.

The plate where the relay were, also had 2 other relays. One of them had apparently something to do with the EV in the front as when I touched it's wires, the relay went mad for a second and the EV did some clicking. Relay gained some warm also. I left it alone for now.
XM 1990, 2.0i 8V, manual (important: black leather and wood in interior)

Rojekti
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Re: XM (1990, 2.0i, Y3, manual, leather) in Finland

Post by Rojekti » Mon May 25, 2015 9:24 am

So the burned wire is apparently oxygen or lambda-sensor or something like that. I'm wondering it in another thread.

Havent had time to do the light, tho.

Did some driving yesterday and another test...... I'm just wondering, isn't it the ECU that takes signal from gas pedal etc. and tells the suspension EV to do things. I was sitting in the car with door open and I gave it some pedal, RPM rising rapidly to 4000-5000. I then heard a click, the EV. Well, I half sitted in the car and half stood on the ground and shook the car and gave it pedal. Before, soft. After hard pedaling, hard. Click, and soft again. Then, slow pedaling, slowly rising RPM. No clicks, remains in soft.
XM 1990, 2.0i 8V, manual (important: black leather and wood in interior)

Rojekti
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Re: XM (1990, 2.0i, Y3, manual, leather) in Finland

Post by Rojekti » Fri May 29, 2015 9:22 am

I'd love to have the lights for EV's status but havent had the time.

I'm going to take the car for after-MOT next thuesday. It should pass and I'm then free as a bird to drive the XM. That's rather cool.

Also I'm going to refill spheres at some point at a citroen garage.

After that, if the ride wont change, I will install the light. If refilling the spheres help, I'd still like to install the EV-light. Gotta figure out where to put it. I got some leds so I perhaps drill a neat hole somewhere and put the light to a place where I can see it all the time.
XM 1990, 2.0i 8V, manual (important: black leather and wood in interior)

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Re: XM (1990, 2.0i, Y3, manual, leather) in Finland

Post by Dieselman » Fri May 29, 2015 11:43 am

Just do a temporary fix. Once you start driving the car you will get used to how the suspension feels and when it is switching.

H1 is normally pretty reliable.
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

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