3.0 V6-24 Project

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MTXM
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Re: 3.0 V6-24 Project

Post by MTXM » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:07 pm

I just looked at a thread comparing 10W40 and 15W50 on a motorcycling forum and the consensus seemed to be that there was very little to choose between them. The heavier oil is better in warm climates and gives slightly better wear protection, while the lighter may improve performance. Although 10W40 is more standard it does not seem to be a problem to obtain 15W50. Regards, Matthew T.
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1989 V6 Exclusive (Poland car) - Now living in a local Motor Museum!
1990 V6sei auto (grey auto)
1990 V6sei manual (gold car)
1990 V6.24 Pallas (Germany car)
1990 V6.24v (Scotland car)
Other previous XM sold and broken too many to mention!

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Re: 3.0 V6-24 Project

Post by xmexclusive » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:19 pm

Somewhere I read a Citroen note on oils.
Petrol cars up to 1994 MY should not use semi or synthetic oils.
1995 MY on were to use semi-synthetic oils.

John

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Re: 3.0 V6-24 Project

Post by Dieselman » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:59 pm

xmexclusive wrote:Somewhere I read a Citroen note on oils.
Petrol cars up to 1994 MY should not use semi or synthetic oils.
1995 MY on were to use semi-synthetic oils.

John
I suspect that was just down to availability. It could possibly be for seal compatibility, but I doubt there would be a metal bearing issue.
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

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Re: 3.0 V6-24 Project

Post by Dieselman » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:01 pm

MTXM wrote:
How many PRV engines ate themselves alive in the first 3 years before Citroen decided to look again at their recommended oil spec then? is the question
.

That is a fair comment Dean, but why did they in the end revert back to 10/15W40 oil for both V6?
.
Like most manufacturers, I would suspect for fuel economy.
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

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Re: 3.0 V6-24 Project

Post by Dieselman » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:05 pm

Dean wrote:
MTXM wrote:
Citroen recommend the thicker oil.
10/15W40 was deemed acceptable for the first three years of production! Regards, Matthew T.
How many PRV engines ate themselves alive in the first 3 years before Citroen decided to look again at their recommended oil spec then? is the question.
The 12v engine as fitted to Ovlov's destroyed Cam's at a horrific rate, same engine, same longitudinal layout as Pugs of the time and the Pug engines were fine, the only difference was Volvo recommended a different oil and a different service interval.

someone will know the dates for each handbook issue number, John may have already posted it, I will search.

D
Where do we find these elusive dates in the owners handbook? I believe I'm reading from the one that came in my 1990 car, but can't verify it. I've just checked the one in the 24v and that has the same information...15W-50.
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

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Re: 3.0 V6-24 Project

Post by Dieselman » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:10 pm

russ92xmsed wrote:
Dieselman wrote:Citroen recommend the thicker oil.

I wouldn't change from 10W to 15W, as 10W will give better cold flow. The 40 or 50 designation is in respect to the hot oil film, thus a thicker oil gives better protection in a larger clearance engine.

I have gone for Total Quartz 10W-50 to give a wide range, without the likelihood of oil breakdown, as can happen in some very wide ranged oils. i.e. if you went for 0W-50, the chances oil polymer breakdown are greater than 10W-50.

I wouldn't expect a thicker oil to be good for quoting sticky hydraulic tappets, just the opposite would be more appropriate.

Anyway, the cans say "Racing" on, so it must be the right stuff...
Interesting. Okay I will upgrade to 10W-50. But the sticky hydraulic tappets should not be an issue soon.
It's having a tappetectomy!
That would be a downgrade for your engine. the spec for your engine is 15W-40, so don't go heavier than 40. I would go lower at the front number to give better cold flow. I'm running on either 5W-40 or 10W-40 depending on which particular brand of sludge I'm using, though I do use at least semi or full synthetic sludge. If you can get it at a sensible price, Millers XFD is great stuff.

The diesels aren't particularly fussy about oil and I'm only being particular with the 24v due to the fragility of the valve train components and the heat the engine produces. If the oil film breaks down, the tappetts and big ends will be toast in seconds. that's what happened on my friends BX-16v. one minute happily plugging along at 140...next minute wrecked engine.
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

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Re: 3.0 V6-24 Project

Post by Dieselman » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:26 pm

Blatantly plagurised from http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/r ... fferences/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Matching viscosity to engine clearances

Viscosity must be properly matched to the engine’s clearances and operating conditions to optimize performance. If an engine is not built to take advantage of light viscosity engine oils, the oil may not be able to adequately “fill” the oil clearances and fail to adequately support engine loads. On the other hand, heavy viscosity grade engine oil does not automatically equal better protection.

“Oil film strength and high-temperature, high-shear viscosity are the essentials to providing optimum bearing protection,” says Negast.

Selecting an oil viscosity to match bearing clearances is especially important in a race engine.

There’s an old engine builder’s adage about clearances says that “loose is safe.” That’s generally true, but some builders flirt with disaster by running wider clearances and using thinner oil that can’t support them. The pressure distribution of any bearing is typically greatest at the center and tapers off toward the edges as the bearing discharges oil to the side clearance. Hence, wider bearing clearances require a higher viscosity oil to maintain the hydrodynamic oil wedge while tighter clearances will support thinner oil at the right pressure.

“Whether you realize it or not, you build your engine around the oil so matching viscosity and clearances is critical,”
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

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Re: 3.0 V6-24 Project

Post by xmexclusive » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:54 pm

The only note on oil that I can find in the recall binder.
xmoil001.jpg
Final entry in binder is April 1997.

John
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White Exec
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Re: 3.0 V6-24 Project

Post by White Exec » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:23 pm

xmexclusive wrote:Somewhere I read a Citroen note on oils.
Petrol cars up to 1994 MY should not use semi or synthetic oils.
1995 MY on were to use semi-synthetic oils.
John, I think this might relate:
from Citroen Private Cars data, Xantia-XM-Synergie, 2001
CAR050008 Book 2

p.23 Lubricants:

ATTENTION: Engines fitted in Citroen vehicles prior to 2000 model year must not be lubricated with oil complying with standards ACEA A1-98 / B1-98 and API SJ/CF EC.

The grades are defined as follows: Note paragraph 1

ACEA A1/B1 Category is removed with the ACEA 2016 Oil Sequences. From ACEA 2012: Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in gasoline engines and car & light van diesel engines specifically designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a high temperature / high shear rate viscosity of 2.6 mPa*s for xW/20 and 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s for all other viscosity grades. These oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

ACEA A3/B3 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil intended for use in Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & Diesel Engines and/or for extended drain intervals where specified by the engine manufacturer, and/or for year-round use of Low Viscosity Oils, and/or for severe operating conditions as defined by the Engine Manufacturer.

ACEA A3/B4 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil intended for use in Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines, but also suitable for applications described under A3/B3.

ACEA A5/B5 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil intended for use at extended Drain Intervals in Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & Diesel Engines designed to be capable of using Low Viscosity Oils with HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa*s. These Oils are unsuitable for use in certain Engines - consult vehicle-OEM’s owner’s manual/handbook in case of doubt.


___________________

My own experience is that our '80s and '90s Citroen diesels are quite happy on grades up to and including 20W-50, and run reliably and quietly on these. Looking at bores at 100k and 200k miles on XUD-type engines has shown up almost no perceptible wear, even when running on humble mineral 20W-50. Tappets can run noisier on thinner grades, especially when cold and on start-up.
I have had exactly the same experience on a Toyota D4D 2.0, where 20W-50 is also listed as acceptable. This all relates to use in both UK and here, all times of year.

Also, as noted many times, important that the oil filter is decent quality, and equipped with non-return/anti-drainback membrane, eg Purflux.

Petrol engines are a different game altogether, but note Citroen's instruction above, which relates to both Petrol and Diesel.
Last edited by White Exec on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003

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White Exec
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Location: ex-Ealing, Cheshire, W.Sussex & Surrey. Now living in Sayalonga (Malaga, Spain)

Re: 3.0 V6-24 Project

Post by White Exec » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:30 pm

John,
Oddly, that 1991 note doesn't say which Quartz oil - was there only one at that time?
Can't immediately find any info on the Cit numbers.
C.
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003

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