Dashboard and Lights

[newxmman]

Hi mate. Sorry for delay. This is good info. Both my h1 bulbs that I fitted seem to have blown but I installed a new one nearside which works. Trouble is, the front sidelights are now not working, and the dips come on as soon as I switch the ignition on without the light switch being pushed on. The rear sidelights are still permanently on. So now we have a continual feed to the dips for some reason and the rear sidelights. What you re saying about the bulb failure module, I’ve only just seen your post, is interesting and I’ll try that. But is it possible I’ve blown that by putting the new ballasts and hid bulbs in or do they blow over time? Also are there any other relays under the dash for headlamps. Lastly when I switch on the ignition without the lights being pushed, there is a scream from the headlamp relays on the offside but they the dip on that side is not connected. There also seems to be a relay scream coming from passenger, that is nearside under dash, if I put the light switch on, the scream goes. Any clues. Cheers for your great help.

[Dieselman]

It sounds like you might have one, or more stuck relays, which are mounted behind the R/h headlamp.

In the circuit diagrams 825 is the dip beam relay, 827 is the dim-dip relay (daytime running lights when sidelights are on), 829 is the sidelamps/taillamps relay.

If relay 829 is stuck on then the headlamps will be stuck on dim dip also, but the sidelamps should be on, which yours aren't, but the tail-lights are.

Pull the lights fuses and see what effect there is. It might be as expected, with the lights going out, but it also might be there is a seperate feed keeping the lights on.
Also disconnect the lights switch, then the bulb failure module, again to see if there is any effect. I would expect all lights to go out without either fuses, lights switch, or bulb failure module.

Pick a circuit and follow the power through it.
Also ensure any Gnd connections are sound.

The relay noise makes me think there is indeed a feed coming from elsewhere, the interior light timer relay lives under the glovebox.
Other relays are in the relay board, mounted on the reverse side of the fusebox, which include front and rear foglamps relays and light on warning buzzer, which operates when lights are left on with Ign off and door open.

To answer your question about the lights warning module, they are normally relible.

It sounds silly, but are all the bulbs in the lights, especially the rear ones, the correct ones.
If incorrect bulbs are installed it can lead to crosstalk between circuits.

I'll refer you back to the circuit diagrams, as all the information for testing the circuits is in there.
The faults are probably connected, but start with one simple circuit and follow it through. I would pick sidelights to keep it simple, otherwise you are in danger of being engulfed by trying to work on too many circuits at once.

A 12v test lamp should be sufficient for fault finding this issue.
Have a go and come back when you have queries.
Make note of what voltages/effect you find at which points and whether the Gnds are tested Ok.

To test with a test lamp:
First connect to battery +ve and -ve to check the lamp works, then connect from Batt +ve to bare metal on the body/engine, which tests the Gnd from the battery is sound. Use a 55w lamp for this test.

For each circuit, to check +12v connect the test lamp between Batt/body Gnd and the connection being tested, the lamp should illuminate. Use 5W lamp for this, or 55w for headlamps only.
Don't forget to check the Gnd for each device, all circuits need power and Gnd, to operate. (e.g. A relay may have +12v feed for the load supply and the coil energising, but may not have Gnd, so the coil won't energise.

Being a '92 car yours could have the lights switch either on the stalk, or a rotary switch on the steering wheel shroud. The rotary switches use fixed contacts and rotating pins. The pins can stick due to old grease, which can cause odd connection issues. The switch can be stripped down and serviced.

[Dieselman]

For the sidelights not working check the number plate lamps, as they are fed from the same power source, including F10. After F10 the numberplate lamps branch off and do not pass through the bulb monitor module.
If the numberplate lamps are working there is power to F10 and everything previous in the circuit.

The dashboard tell-tale lamp for sidelamps should illuminate as should all the backlighting for the cabin switches.
If the numberplate lamps and switchgear aren't illuminated check for power at both sides of F10.

For constant tail-lamps, the fuses are F14 for R/h and F18 for Lh and power must be flowing for the lamps to be lit...but the same power feed also feeds F10, for the sidelights...which are not illuminated, so there must be a failure after the loom splits, possibly at the fusebox, bulb monitor module, or the fuse is blown, or the bulbs.

Each of these circuits has a seperate resistive shunt inside the bulb failure module, so it's possible the sidelights shunt has failed, but not the tail lamps. There is a chip that measures the voltage drop across each resistive shunt...no voltage drop means the bulb/circuit is open circuit, as no current is flowing.
Even if the chip is blown the resistive shunt should still be complete, so the lamp should illuminate, but if there is loss of power at the module, a visual inspection should reveal the reason.
It is theoretically possible for the chip to short circuit and pass power to the resistive shunts, thus illumintaing the lamps, but I think that is unlikely.

For the headlamps being stuck on when Ign is on, there is only the lights switch and the dip beam relay.
If the relay was stuck on the lights would be constantly lit, irrespective of Ign on, or off.
This indicates the light switch is stuck on, or power is being back fed from another source.
The lights switch feeds power to the fog lamp switches, so check those.

Again, all the circuit diagrams, relay locations and fuses are listed in the below thread.
The Haynes manual diagrams are easy to read and should suffice. The headlamp Dim-dip fuction (if fitted) may require reference to the Citroen diagrams in the Zip file, as there are additional relays.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10268

[newxmman]

Think I’ll start with the relays on your info. Then see where it brings us. Cheers so much.

[Dieselman]

Start with the sidelights.

I've given this more thought.
You initially altered the wiring to install Hid ballasts, which I believe you then removed.
I suspect the Gnd to the sidelamps is now missing and is now wired to a +12v feed, which is pushing power through the bulbs and F10 into the rest of the system, thus illuminating the tail lamps and headlamps on dip.
The sidelights won't illuminate as the bulbs have +12v on both sides of them.

This fits with the lights on warning buzzer being active until the lights are switched on, when it then has +12v on both sides.

A quick test would be to disconnect both sidelamps to break the circuit.
Pulling F10 will also break the circuit, but only upstream of the bulb failure module and number-plate lamps, thus there could still be undiagnosed crosstalk at those points.

[newxmman]

That’s confused me slightly. When I first installed hid, it worked fine for two years so I must have got it right. After that time they suddenly blew, taking out 3 other functions fuses, which I re installed and they work. Meanwhile I looked at the hid bulbs and saw they seemed blown at the bulb. So I tested a new bulb nearside and it worked. Of course by mistake I could have mucked up the wiring this time to the side lamps at front. Seems likely, as rear are still on. So if the number plate lights are on which I haven’t checked yet, and it is as you say, then do I still check the relays behind the fuse in the dashboard? Which scream until I turn the lights on (that’s the relay is screaming without the door open buzzer working now) and what about the relay on the headlamp offside which is not connected to a bulb at the moment, why does it scream, because it’s not connected? Meanwhile, the door open with lights on buzzer has stopped working, so when I open the door, and of course the lights show on all the time, the door open buzzer doesn’t now buzz. I don’t know why it stopped, it stopped before I installed the new bulb, but then again I don’t know why it started because it didn’t work before I put in the three new fuses after they’d blown. Mystifying to me now. If I have cross talk at upstream of the points you mention, how come all of a sudden? Only thing I can think of is leaving the dipped beam on permanent and fitted wires with a new switch direct to the front and rear side lights on the dash somewhere, sounds desperate doesn’t it? But what about the screaming relays?

[Dieselman]

If the relays are making a noise with the engine off I'm not sure why, yet, but if with the engine running it could be the alternator is over-charging and has rectifier ripple...check the charging voltage isn't over ~14.5v.

I would go with plan A, check the sidelights out. I suspect all will become clear once you have performed that check, any further issues will be self explanatory.
Work through the issues one by one, to avoid confusion.
Assume this is a car you have never seen before and have no historical knowledge of...start with the basics and from scratch.

Is there a chance the battery became disconnected, or poor connections, with the engine running, as that could cause a voltage spike.

[newxmman]

Yes thanks I will. It is possible I suppose that there was a spike which caused the original blow but why did it cause the sidelight permanent feed issue?

[Dieselman]

Yes thanks I will. It is possible I suppose that there was a spike which caused the original blow but why did it cause the sidelight permanent feed issue?

If it did?
Once you take a look, we will have the results of your investigations to reference.

[newxmman]

Hi Dieselman and all. I took out the interior fuse box. F10 had blown but it’s done that before. I re seated the door open warning relay and replaced F10 with a higher amp. And tried to make sure the other relays were seated and no wires loose anywhere. Number plate lights working. Then for the first time for months the side lights back and front went out. I re installed a new dip light set with ballasts direct to live from the battery, there was probably nothing wrong with the first one I put on. The side lights and main beam worked but not the dips. After looking at and replacing the front light relays above the front grill, still the dips wouldn’t come on. Noticed when I tried to push one relay in that the dips flickered and went off when pushed fully home. Just wouldn’t work. Then played with the relay and noticed that if I put four of the relay pins just into their females the dips came on, if I then contacted the right hand pin and tried to locate it, the lights went off. By instinct I pressed back that fifth pin on the relay and pushed it home so that would not locate or go in, so it’s now four pin. The lights now work as they should. The main beam and the dips stay on together when on full beam, the main beam goes out on dip. I don’t understand what went wrong. I’m guessing a mixture between the relays behind the fuse box and the right hand headlamp relay receptor going wrong. I don’t know if it will continue to work but I hope so. What comments if any?