Declare it Dead !

[onthecut]

Hi Guys

I still have a look to see if the old forum has fired up again, but then have to ask myself that if it has, where does that leave my loyalties; after all, there is a limit to how many things one can spend time on. I can understand that for some reason, whoever ran the original may no longer have the inclination to do so, but I do think if that is the case, it might be nice and end any ambiguity if they posted a page where the forum used to be confirming it's all over and perhaps directing people here.
The really big issue is obviously the wealth of information tucked away on the old forum. If, as has been mentioned, it is possible to access the relevant pages by roundabout means, would it not be possible (with the contributors agreement) to copy them onto here ? I thought some of the presentations were stunning and vastly clearer than the official workshop manual, or anything else -- not to mention the additional hours people obviously devoted to the task of documenting their jobs so well.

Mike.

[Dean]

I had been thinking the same thing and although we are all very gratefull to Chris for hosting club XM at no cost to us and for all the work that Noz put in, i fear i will not be returning to the old club xm now on a regular basis and will at some point, when this forum is sorted and on the level, copy some of my more interesting posts to this site, if i can find one .
It seems over time interest in club xm has wained somewhat and although it is a brilliant forum i dont think i want to keep putting my time into posting there for fear of it all falling into a big black hole .
With this new site i think that Ciaran and whoever he chooses to help out will be a bit more dedicated not only to the forum but to Citroens in general and that can only be a good thing.
Like you say there are only so many places you can be, but i would rather be here where the effort is being put in.

D

[Peter.N.]

One or two are still posting on the old forum where accessable, so I have brought to their attention the existance of this one as there are quite a number who havn't found it yet. The email facility on club-xm doesn't seem to work any more so it will just be a question of looking for this one.

Peter

[andmcit]

No, why?

I'm not giving up on the old girl just yet!!

Even where it now appears every regular contributor has thrown the towel in and
gone where the grass is actually growing if not greener. If there's no motivation to
get it fixed then could you blame Chris for any complacency or interest in spending
the time and getting the front end fixed?

IF THE BULK OF THE FORUM STILL EXISTS IT CANNOT BE LET GO AND WOUND UP!!

Actually, I've been having a lot of catch up time among the older postings where
I hadn't had the opportunity to read into things and actually picked up a few things
and nuances missed in the usual manic round of daily postings.

Please realise, I'm not having a pop at anyone here or Ciaran's brilliant efforts to
get Xm dialaogue going again.

IT IS FAR BIG A POOL OF KNOWLEDGE TO JUST WIND UP! What is the position with
NOZ and Chris - has anyone got a definitive answer yet in the state of proceedings.
IF Chris cannot be bothered to fix it or isn't in a position to actually get it fixed,
why not be upfront and allow the data to be passed on to another pair of safe hands
that could spare the time to get a workaround sorted?

It's not even that difficult to post and read other postings - just have them bookmarked.
Yes, the larger 'membership' are still out there waiting for it to fire back up. I'm sure
the likes of Techmanagain, Thwartedefforts, Steelcityuk, Jan-hendrik, DoubleChevron,
DrTim, bigjohnh, aengus-xmv6 etc etc etc (apologies if you've signed up here BTW
- I've not been around much myself...) would love to be chatting about Xm's on the old
forum and can't!!

Andrew

[Dean]

Hi Andrew

Your points are very valid, to the point i cant disagree but where is Chris? i may be more inclined to go back if it seemed he had more interest in the site but last time he posted didnt he just pop up to say he owned everything and that the forum was in need of some TLC then dissapeared again it just doesnt instill confidence is what i guess im saying..........

D

[Ciaran]

I know that Norrie is aware of the existence of this forum, at least I think that Peter had said he was going to email him, and also if he's been reading Club-XM himself he will be aware.

The difficulty is I don't want to seem like I'm making light of any of the hard work he put in over the years to keep Club-XM going, not to mention his massive technical contribution. The current problems are not Norrie's fault, nor are they within his capability to resolve, because he doesn't have the access to the server required to do so.
Apparently Chris Light, the host, was made aware of the problems a fortnight ago, and promised to either fix it, or scrap it and upgrade to a new forum.
To speak frankly, if one of your tables is fragged beyond repair, it takes about an hour to figure this out, and make the decision to either attempt some recovery, or scrap it and build a new one. I can't speculate on the reasons why Chris hasn't done this, however that doesn't help the forum or its users.

The other issue from my point of view, which a few people are aware of, is I'm not comfortable with the custodian of so much effort and valuable data, being someone who doesn't participate in the XM community on a daily basis, who for whatever reason, has a laxadasical approach to running and maintaining the forum, and who most importantly, has in the past expressed the notion that the data "belongs to" him, and not the users who created it. In light of these points, I do feel the community is at risk of loosing a valuable and irreplacable resource, should it transpire that Chris cannot host it anymore for whatever reason. They have already been deprived of it for going on seven weeks, with no sign of a resolution.

Now don't for one minute think I'm having a go at Chris, I'm just stating the facts as I see them, and I like everyone else, do appreciate his effort in originally setting the forum up, and hosting it for free all these years, however as he evidentially can't do it at the level required to maintain a reliable site, I do believe he should step aside and let the community manage it itself. Obviously Chris has his reasons for not being involved anymore, I know he has business, and no doubt family commitments, and he no longer owns an XM, thats perfectly understandable, but it doesn't help our cause.

Ideally I would like it if Chris could be approached and see if he would be willing to give us the Club-XM database, and I would then figure out / create some way of importing the technical content into this forum, however I don't think he will be willing to do that for various reasons. That leaves us with the other option, manually copy across the relevant information such as PDFs, and posts themselves, and post them to the relevant sections on here. I am willing to do this, as are a few of our technical contributers, but it is the 'back door' way.

Irrespective of the original Club-XMs future status, I intend that this site (whatever it ends up being called), will be here to stay. I believe that this resource, for and by the XM community, should be managed and safeguarded by that community, not by someone with absentee landlord status, and unknown motivations.

Ciarán

[CitroJim]

I'm very late into Club-XM so know nothing of the background but I agree totally with you Andrew, there is a wealth of knowledge in the old Club-XM and that knowledge was what took me there in the first place. The old Club-XM had more V6 and 4HP20 knowledge than anywhere else. It is a devastating loss not to be able to get at that knowledge. It will take years to rebuild.

I don't understand the role Chris and NOZ play here. I'm aware that strenuous eforts were made to contact them and presume so positive contact was made so why did they not resolve the issue or offer the problem to Ciarán to resolve. You, Ciarán, clearly have the knowledge and skill to do that. I would have thought thay'd have been glad of any offer to help them and would have jumped at the chance.

The FCF (and with it the BXC) almost died a couple of years ago and in fact I rescued the database just days before it would have been lost forever. The writing was on the wall for the FCF and knowing the wealth of priceless information there, I doggedly persued the site owner to discuss the issues and formulate a plan. My problem was getting hold of the owner but in the end I did and after establishing my bona-fides he was content to run with my thoughts and the rest is history. He still owns the forums but he is happy to allow me to run them on a day to day technical basis.

During the really dark days for the FCF, a new Xantia Club was set up and ran for a few months and a few of us worked hard to put together a knowledgebase but that site never really worked, mainly because it was on a free system and invisible to the web bots for some reason. Ultimately the FCF problems were largely resolved and the new Xantia Club died through lack of interest and lack of a search-engine presence. Everyone came back home to the FCF.

With regard to this forum, I believe it will work perfectly. It'll be web bot visible and all the old members will find it and the knowledge will build in time and even if the old club-XM does retun to full working order, I'm sure they can co-exist just as the the BXP and the BXC does.

The prospects, again from my outside view, for the old Club-XM, look bleak. It's been down a while and Chris or NOZ must be aware of that fact. They must also be aware of this forum. If they have not been spurred into action by now, it's looking more and more unlikely they will be.

Finally, the value of the FCF and BXC databases are, to me, so immense that I take huge care to maintain them safely by hosting them remotly and taking very regular backups. I'm trying to ensure that if ever the FCF or BXC should die in their present form for any reason, the data will still exist for a ressurection; in the case of the FCF, that happened once before. It used to be the old Andyspares Forum and all the posts from those days are still extant on the present FCF!

I'm also very aware that I have a big commitment to keep the forums on-line and that people rely on them. The loss of a forum with a big base of technical information not only upsets the "regulars" but the invisible mass of users who may post rarely but regularly use it as their source of information to keep their cars running; It possibly hits them more.

[andmcit]

Irrespective of the original Club-XMs future status, I intend that this site (whatever it
ends up being called), will be here to stay. I believe that this resource, for and by the
XM community, should be managed and safeguarded by that community, not by someone
with absentee landlord status, and unknown motivations.

Ciarán

Totally agree. With the forum run by an involved motivated (and motivational) member
who actually owns an example of the actual car being discussed there is undoubtedely a
stronger longterm future for a forum. Our old friend FrenchCarForum was dead on it's
feet a year or so back for months and months and ressurected by Jim and we all know what
healthy shape it appears to be in presently with assured funding and hands-on ownership.
Whilst this should be seen as a similar wake up call for club-xm to resolve a more practical
long-term solution the old forum and it's accumulated 'history' of 6 yearsworth of 1000's of
posts cannot just be declared dead and switched off. The hardcore members from FCF were
in a parallel forum for a while that sadly died quiety and ignominiuosly once the 'mothership'
forum was reactivated.

What I cannot understand really, is if Chris isn't bothered and even has a chip on his
shoulder about something, why let it all stew and say/do nothing. What happened?

The real gem of the database at club-xm.com is the membership more than the posts.
With many contributors and the collective pooled wisdom, the actual info should easily
be resurrected - after all, it's the people that impart that knowledge that make the forum,
not the data. If Chris has given up, why prolong the uncertainty and either pass the lot on
or the membership stats?

Currently, I personally realise myself how things can cummulatively overwhelm you and
it's almost a rabbit staring at the oncoming headlights scenario where you're left transfixed
unable to move or decide what to do first - mental inertia so to speak.

Can Noz have a word with Chris to end this uncertainty?


Andrew

[CitroJim]

Ciarán,

I was typing my post as you were typing yours so it was only after I submitted mine that I saw yours if you see what I mean

So if anything in mine seems to make little sense in light of what you've just said, that's the reason! Looks like we're generally both singing off the same hymn sheet

EDIT: Andrew, looks like you were typing at the same time too

[andmcit]

Maybe I'm just rattled by this talk of declaring the old forum dead. A long protracted illness and
innevitable death is something I've recently endured myself BUT the forum CAN be fixed with the
right effort/motivation.

Andrew