Declare it Dead !

[Ciaran]

No confusion at all Jim, I think your post made perfect sense, and agree with everything you said.

BTW, something I often wondered about FCF, which was originally Andyspares, why did they suddenly close the Citroen section of their forum (prompting the creation of FCF), yet they left it open for other makes?

I remember it at the time, as I was a regular user of it back then. I also remember the temporary Xantia club you mentioned.

Ciarán

[andmcit]

Actually Ciaran, you may be interested to note that as well as Jim I notice Google (Bot) is
currently signed in already!! I'm sure it's the content discussed that get's the hits not the title
so anything goes; otherwise we'd have to call it the

www .citroen-xm-hydractive-discussion-forum-club-database-helpcentre-etc-etc.com

Andrew

[Ciaran]

Yes I was very pleased to see Google bot has visited, I'm guessing its followed a link in from another forum, must check the database later and see if I can find the referrer link it came in on, just out of interest. That's good, means we'll appear in the index and thats the start of getting listed in search results

That's some URL you quoted there, quite funny
I did once visit a site called 'Citroen-sufferers.co.uk', it was quite good

[xmexclusive]

If you look back through the old site postings you will see a number of comments over the years from Noz that he seldom heard or was able to contact Chris Light. Luckily for us as that while that Forum established itself and then grew very few problems arose and those that did Noz managed to resolve. The end of my wholeharted commitment came a few months ago well before the final failure. I was unhappy with Chris Lights reply to my questions about the site. The only reason that I did not persue the matter was that I received a personal email from Noz, something he obviously did not want the rest of you to know about, asking me in effect to stop rocking the boat it would all be all right. I put up and shut up. Though about it for a while then started preparations in case the old site suddenly became lost. If Ciaran had not stepped in you could have been subjected to my efforts at a website, be grateful. My biggest concern at the present is those former members we have lost contact with. I considered that the data protection act prevented me taking a copy of the published members details. No one seems to have noticed my little posting on the former Club-XM when I offered to hold that list of contacts independant of the site incase the worst should happen. I have sent off details of what has happened to the CCC and have confirmation back that it will be published in the first available Citroenian issue. That should tell a few more former members about the new site.

John

[xmexclusive]

Hi All

I take Andrews point about Google Bot and the name but the point about Google and other search engines is not that it finds your site. The big issue is about how far up on page 1 of the search results it puts your site not the fact that it finds you. If it sticks you on the bottom of page 115 very few potential users are going to be scanning the results that far.

John

[Ciaran]

Hi John,

I must admit I didn't notice that post of yours about the contact details that you mentioned. Regarding the data protection act, I don't believe it should be a problem to hold people's contact details, especially not if they've voluntarily given them to you, and so long as you agreed to remove any records at the request of the individual. It usually only covers organisations that hold personal information, and depending on the purpose they intend it for. While we're on this subject, I've made a few enquiries, and I don't think Chris is entitled to exert ownership or claim copyright over information which:

1. Was not created by him, nor specifically signed over to him by consent of the original author, and
2. Resides on a public website, hence can be reasonably assumed to be 'public domain'. In addition, this site contains no notice of relinquishment of copyright, or any similar warnings visible either upon signup, or with while posting messages.

You are of course completely correct about the Google rankings, I think we're going to have to give the search engine issue serious consideration as soon as we decide on a name.

Nice one on contacting the CCC, that should raise awareness a litle. I must see if I can see a copy of the magazine when it comes out.
I noticed this morning also that Derek has helpfully posted a message on AussieFrogs too, which may bring Shane, UFO etc back over.
I do share your concern of those members who we currently haven't heard from. Perhaps between us we could make a list of the usual names and see if anyone has contact details for them, so we could inform them of the situation and of this site, if they're not already aware.

To start a list, some of these have been already mentioned, and others are ones I can currently think of, off the top of my head:

• Techmanagain
• Dr Tim
• Shane
• UFO
• Jan
• Dave (Aengus V6)
• Roddew

[minijet]

The end of my wholeharted commitment came a few months ago well before the final failure. I was unhappy with Chris Lights reply to my questions about the site. The only reason that I did not persue the matter was that I received a personal email from Noz, something he obviously did not want the rest of you to know about, asking me in effect to stop rocking the boat it would all be all right. I put up and shut up.
John

You were not alone John, I felt the same way about it. I think this is the post?......

http://club-xm.com/forum2/index.php?showtopic=3844

I don't know if this was the last time Chris posted on the forum (it seems a long time ago), I think he continued posting in the C2 section, but there is nothing in that section now.

I'm sure that none of us want's to have a go at Chris, he generously provided a forum for us all (long before I became a member), and for that we're all very grateful. But his words in that post were less than reassuring -
"The position is, the site and everything in it are mine. Like any other site. Something I obviously need to make clear. Move along now folks - nothing to see here...",

[xmexclusive]

Hi Ciaran and All

The posting to CCC stated that it was being made because of the sudden loss of contact with many XM friends and advisors. I specifically mentioned Techmanagain as I believe he is a strong supporter of CCC and may well get a message passed quickly on to him. I did include my personal thanks to both Noz and Chris Light for providing Club-XM as it has been such a valuable forum. I have scoured my machines address book and contacted those I found in there. When I get the time I will unload all my saved Club-XM personal message files and see what other direct contacts are there.
I have not yet given up on Club-XM and still check to see if it has revived before I log on here. I have no real idea how I would react if I find it back. I will worry about that should it happen, not now. The worst thing that can happen at present is that Club-XM does not reappear and we post up large chunks of the former material on our new site and then get mired in an arguement about ownership that limits what we can do on the new site short term. That we would win is fairly certain but you can never be sure where the law is concerned and it would be at a cost of time and money which non of us would want to waste. Please for the time being have a care and avoid posting copied Club-XM old material contributed by other members. If we put up an admin sub-section where individuals can confirm that they hold the originals for their Club-XM contributions and they now submit another copy to this board for the moderators use as they think fit then we will quickly know what we can use again. The logic here is simple. Try telling Bill Gates as original author of Windows that you have bought a copy of Windows so you now own the world rights to it.

John

[onthecut]

The end of my wholeharted commitment came a few months ago well before the final failure. I was unhappy with Chris Lights reply to my questions about the site. The only reason that I did not persue the matter was that I received a personal email from Noz, something he obviously did not want the rest of you to know about, asking me in effect to stop rocking the boat it would all be all right. I put up and shut up.
John

You were not alone John, I felt the same way about it. I think this is the post?......

http://club-xm.com/forum2/index.php?showtopic=3844

I don't know if this was the last time Chris posted on the forum (it seems a long time ago), I think he continued posting in the C2 section, but there is nothing in that section now.

I'm sure that none of us want's to have a go at Chris, he generously provided a forum for us all (long before I became a member), and for that we're all very grateful. But his words in that post were less than reassuring -
"The position is, the site and everything in it are mine. Like any other site. Something I obviously need to make clear. Move along now folks - nothing to see here...",

Well, I'd not seen that thread before and having seen it now I have to say I think the tone of it is pretty dismal. I wonder if the gentleman in question would be so keen to claim ownership if a third party came along chasing him for copyright breach for material posted on the site ? I doubt it.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a good outcome, having read it. I understand Andy's point about not losing the data contained on Club XM, but I think the reality is that before too long hardly anyone is going to bother looking for it, if they are constantly rebuffed.

Mike.

[Ciaran]

Hi guys,

I realise we're kind of at an impasse regarding the 'What if' Club-XM comes back issue.

All I can say is this. If it does come back, I for one wouldn't be happy with it, from a data integrity point of view, unless Chris Light agreed to hand over the reigns, completely to Norrie, or one of us. Based on past events, and some of the threads quoted I honestly can't see that happening. I no longer think its a case of just having to repair the site database and send it on its way, many structural changes need to be made, the forum software upgraded (its pretty much 7 years out of date), and then of course theres the issue of long term support, backups, and delegation of administration rights so that such a problem, and lengthy outage can't happen again.
Now, that's all a significant amount of work, and given the fact that here we are over six weeks since the original problem, and the corrupt database hasn't even been looked at, let alone anything else, I can honestly say I don't think its going to happen anytime soon.

Regardless of what happens, I feel there is validity in continuing to build this site, for as long as Chris remains in control of Club-XM, because we just cannot trust that the rug won't be pulled out from under us at any point in the future, to be frankly honest.

Now I know some people here feel bad, or that they have divided loyalties etc. I totally understand that, I was loyal to Club-XM myself for many years, promoted it to people who asked me about Citroens, and recruited as many other members as I could, all until it became a dead duck with no signs of any resuscitation forthcoming.
The fact is, time is wearing on. Everyone one of us, is here because we own, or are interested in, XMs, or Citroens in general. We need the information and support of members on these forums to maintain and care for our XMs, as well as to impart that help to others in the same boat. That is the thing that brought each and every one of us to sites like this, and while we can debate until the cows come home, and say 'what if' etc, the fact remains that the more time passes, the more our member base scatters, the more our resources dilute. IMO, for us to forever sit here and say 'Hmmm I don't know, Club-XM might come back', talking but not doing, is just as bad as Chris Light not fixing the database problem. Yes, it might come back in five minutes from now, or tomorrow, it might come back in a month, or it might never come back, and if it does, its owners commitment and surrounding it are questionable.
So, we can either do something, or we can sit back and watch this site become as defunct as Club-XM currently is, and our close knit community and wealth of hard created data, dissolve even further.

What I propose we do, is to follow John's suggestion. I can create an 'Administration' section, with a 'Content' forum in it. People can then post there referring to content they own on Club-XM, and saying if it could be used, or better still, could just post the content straight to the relevant sections.

I know people are wary about putting effort into this site in case Club-XM does suddenly re-materialise, but to be honest I think in current circumstances that's unlikely, and mightn't change too much anyway, due to other reasons we've discussed.

Just my thoughts, I'm not purporting to tell anyone what to do.

Ciarán