Citroen XM Forum

Saw this petition posted elsewhere, a translation from the original French text here:

http://www.mesopinions.com/petition/aut ... roen/11030

Attention :
Mr. Denis Duchesne
Director PSA Excellence System

Petition against the ending of the PSA Citroën hydropneumatic system

With the creation by Citroën of the DS of 1955 (the petition creator has forgotten the 15CV H but his intentions are good so…), the hydropneumatic system revolutionised comfort, grip, ride and vehicle safety. It was so obviously a superior system from the outset, compared to all competing cars’ suspension systems. And with the addition of electronics, such as the C6 , we achieved a quality never before seen in wheel/road surface communication.

And it is at this moment in history that the Directorate of PSA has decided to end this wonderful invention that has made Citroën known worldwide and given the company its legendary reputation!

How can you erase 60 years of original art creation, which made Citroën "manufacturer of the century"?

At this point, can the demands of financial and stock requirements which are manifestations of the perversity of the economy, supplant human intelligence and genius?

How can you make such an unacceptable decision to regress given that the marque has surpassed the competition with its spectacular innovations in road safety? (According to insurance statistics, Citroën is the marque least involved in accidents).

It would be a shame if the leaders of PSA were to forget that Citroën is the only manufacturer who managed to give the various components of vehicles (suspension, braking, steering, lighting, etc. ) intelligent cybernetic behaviour systems.

And how dare you leave in disarray all owners of Citroën hydropneumatic cars - from the DS 19 to the C6; cars which have marked the history of the automobile by their avant-garde qualities?

What will current Citroën owners do when they need to replace their current hydropneumatic vehicle, knowing that they no longer have the choice of metal springs of (an anachronism from the time of the ark)? This is a betrayal; an insult to the innovative engineers and designers of this technology; and a denial of scientific progress.

In addition, this decision is a strategic mistake, for, without this hydropneumatic system, Citroën models will lose their specific character and will just fall in line with their many competitors, becoming no different from all the others!

Many customers will leave the brand out of spite. Why continue to buy Citroën since nothing fundamental will distinguish this manufacturer any longer!

Do not erase this long and distinguished intellectual and industrial adventure of hydrotech and reconsider this absurd and desperate decision.

Personally take the time to study and objectively compare the qualities (especially ride comfort and handling) that Citroën models offer .

The hydropneumatic system must actually qualify for the best invention in automotive history and the fruit of genius and passion should not disappear!

Bernard Grand
MA Physical Sciences
Doctor of Philosophy

I will sign the petition but I saw this coming when the C5 Mk2 was offered with a choice of standard suspension and oleopneumatic. If this had happened, say, five or seven years ago, I might have given a big care but now I think it´s unsurprising and not the kind of problem I am going to get emotional about. That said, I am signing the petition and agree that PSA are being stupid and short-sighted. Which part of "USP" does not translate to French?

Yes I agree, it was maybe inevitable with the increasing Peugeotisation of Citroen, and with the C5 sharing the platform with the 407/8/whatever, I too was disappointed but not surprised when the C5 was offered with springs.

I don't know if this petition will make any difference whatsoever to what essentially is a commercial decision by a private enterprise, but I suppose it's better signing it than not

I tell you what, if it goes ahead then the current XMs, C5 and 6 will be my last Citroens. If I'm being forced back to concrete ride anonymous Euro-blandness then there are much more capable and interesting vehicles to do so with.

What would your modern alternatives be? I can´t think of a modern car that will do what my XM does, not European ones. I do follow the US car press and I understand that the latest large Acura offers really good ride and interesting four-wheel steering (which sounds like my recipe for a modern large Peugeot!). If you dared to be different you could import something like that. Apart from that, I don't´know what the alternative is other than just not having a car and renting now and again. I really couldn´t be bothered shelling out all that money to own an ordinary car.

Where is this reported elsewhere? I have tried to find an original source for this news, without success.

Yes, I saw this coming too, with the German offering of an Insignia platform, along with conventional springing. It would be interesting to know whether that decision did anything to improve Citroen sales...

I guess it's not Citroen we're arguing with here. There must be folk there who are as gutted as we are. Petitions may help, but the only thing that PSA will take any notice of is an international media/motoring press campaign. Their response might well be, "Well, OK, there are buyers who care about technical innovation and excellence (and hydropneumatics), but when you look at how many of these cars we actually sell, and how much it costs to develop and produce them, then the figures just don't stack up...". Or something like that.

And neither, I guess, would be majority of today's Citroen drivers be much interested in signing the petition. They don't drive hydropneumatic vehicles, and have probably never been a passenger in one - or even heard of the technology.

It is sad to see the end of an era, and we'll probably just have to get used to it. The Xantia, XM, C5 and C6 might well turn out to be "the last of the real Citroens". I've a feeling of deja vu here, having been through all of this - almost letter by letter - with Rover. It's all well documented, and, if you haven't seen this, then it will make you weep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV-9dVb7keM. It could have been made about us.

Several of us have said that not much out there grabs our attention, and it all looks much of a muchness. If not a fluid-sprung Citroen, then what to choose? It could just be that Citroen have actually held out - in terms of commitment to engineering excellence and innovation (and styling) rather longer than all the others. For decades, Citroen aimed to turn heads and grab headlines, and did just that, from the Traction Avant and DS (and 2CV) onwards. You always knew it was a Citroen.

Today, though, it's Euroboxes and Globalboxes by the million, and, without the badging, they're about as attention-grabbing as domestic white-goods . . . designed to upset no-one, but that's about it. Just occasionally, something memorable pops up: the Mk1 Golf, the Peugeot 306 - but it doesn't last, and successor versions slip back into mediocrity.

Perhaps something different could be hoped for at the executive end of the market, with manufacturers striving to produce the best in performance, luxury and prestige. But the bean-counters have put paid to that now, so we've seen the last of the many quality saloons - the big Rovers, the classic Jags, the Vel Satis, the XM and the C6, with the 607 hanging on a bit longer. Jags sit on Mondeo floors, C6 sits on C5 (or is it Insignia?). Simply selling 250,000 just isn't good enough these days.

All the more frustrating and ironic to see, then, Citroen giving up competing with German output, just at a time when Mercedes has acquired a reputation for poor build, and BMW products often fail to inspire (unless your prime interest is in buying the badge).

Should get top gear on the case and then finish it off with a nice large XM v6 Manual and an Activa to show what the systems really do.

Even better would be a Xantia or XM that was destined for the scrap heap. Load up a tonne of bricks in the back and do the same with a pug or another equivelant and see how they go round or off the track I bet the first thing they would say would be "hmm the ride has got even softer, hows that possible(to which captain slow chirps up....)" it would make a cracking episode and if the Activa was a V6 then a track time should be done to see how well it compares with modern sports cars

How many C5s are sold with hydro-pneumatic? I know the reasons why the C6 failed to sell, but again, the one oily model available didn't move. With platform costs what they are it is rational to say time to stop.

I have been testdriving a few modern cars in the last week, and to be honest, for the road surfaces round here (ridged and potholed) the ride quality of all (Skoda Superb, Citroen C4 Picasso and Mazda 6) have been better at coping with the choppiness than the XM, which remains supremely comfortable on good surfaces and those with surface imperfections, but which thumps and bangs in these circs.

I still love the loping ride, but I have been staggered by how well the above cars ride.

casalingua wrote:What would your modern alternatives be? I can´t think of a modern car that will do what my XM does, not European ones. I do follow the US car press and I understand that the latest large Acura offers really good ride and interesting four-wheel steering (which sounds like my recipe for a modern large Peugeot!). If you dared to be different you could import something like that. Apart from that, I don't´know what the alternative is other than just not having a car and renting now and again. I really couldn´t be bothered shelling out all that money to own an ordinary car.

A very good question and one I've long pondered.
C6 maybe, but they won't last forever.
In the next few years I see myself scaling back my daily driver XMs to pampered weekend and special occasion cars, so will need new daily hacks, the logical choices are C5 and 6. But even they, particularly the latter, are probably going to get as least as hard to support as XMs in terms of part availability and maintenance or proprietary systems.
The current C5s are still in production, for now, so there's perhaps another what, 3-5 years of olepneumatic manufacturing before that model is updated to a springs only one? So 10 years after that point, parts provision will probably also end.

The only saving grace might be that the C5s are way more numerous than the XMs and C6, so there will be a larger aftermarket support network, but eventually even that will dry up, especially with Citroen being hell bent on proudly destroying every trace of spares for a model after production ends, it's as if they never existed.

So that brings me to the point of, in the absence of C5/6, what the hell could you conceivably replace an XM with from some other marque?

Like Robert, I quite like the big Volvos. They're no Citroen but they would more than do. They're hardly distinctive though.
Then I thought about Saabs (not withstanding their latest issues), 10 years ago maybe, but look at the current ones, essentially an Opel Vectra in a suit - no thank you.

What else is there? In terms of 'different' I've toyed with the idea of importing a big American saloon like the Ford Crown Victoria and running it on LPG, but spares would be an even bigger nightmare than XMs by that stage, so hardly practical for daily motoring.
I plan to restore and keep at least one of my XMs as a classic for as long as I'm physically and financially able, but as for daily cars, I really don't know, though I fear they won't be Citroens if they loose one of the very things that makes them so distinctive.

That said, who knows what cars will be released over the coming years, perhaps PSA will do an about turn, maybe someone else will build something very interesting... I just can't find it in the current crop though

casalingua wrote:Where is this reported elsewhere? I have tried to find an original source for this news, without success.

I'm not sure where it originated, Julian Marsh (www.citroenet.org.uk) translated it to English, but am not sure where the news came from before it ended up on that website, will ask if he knows.

Ciarán