Bizarre sight (PSA related)

[jeastham]

Afternoon all,

Witnessed a bizarre sight, over the weekend; at least; I've never seen anything like it, before.

Some background....

My mate has a 2005 2.0L Peugeot 307cc. He's had it since 2008. And whilst he took ownership of it, with a full service history; he's done nothing with it since. Not even changed the engine oil (though he did check the stick, and top the oil up, when necessary). Yesterday; we (well me) drained the engine oil; only for the first good few seconds it wasn't engine oil; it was WATER !!

Eventually; it did revert to passing oil; obviously the oil and water separated out; and oil will always sit on top of water. Tonight I'm going to pop round and pour the contents of the collecting-receptacle into one or more 5L clear plastic containers; try and gauge the amount of water, versus the amount of oil.

I'm now thinking about what damage/corrosion this might have caused to the oil-pump, pump drive-chain, crank and crank bearings. It was water, rather than coolant, as his radiator leaked, so he just topped up the expansion tank with tap water. Radiator has since been replaced.

But I'm wondering; how could so much water have got into the sump? I don't believe the head-gasket blew, and there was no evidence of oil in the coolant system.

I should add that the head is currently off; owing to the 8 exhaust valves needing replacement. Head is now skimmed, and rebuilt. However; the exhaust camshaft has run a bearing; due to oil-starvation. Some pics of the damage are below

The bearing carrier (the smaller hole at the top, is the oil-way; this got blocked, and starved the camshaft bearing/housing of oil)....






The corresponding damage to the camshaft.....






There's also damage to the upper camshaft housing, that I didn't take a photograph of; but it's much the same as the first photo above, as I'm sure you can imagine.

Anyway; I've digressed somewhat; suffice to say, it's been an expensive lesson for him. But I've never seen water pouring out of the sump before; and I welcome any thoughts/experience on this.

Cheers

Justin

[Dieselman]

Either the HG did weep, an oil cooler split internally it it could just be condensation built up over years in a low use engine.

I'm amazed at his abuse of this car.

[Eddie nuff]

I just don't understand what the thinking is of those who don't see the need to service their vehicles, or any other piece of machinery for that matter.

[White Exec]

In 1965, a young teacher who taught at my school, and who shared a few characteristics of Spike Milligan, ran an ancient Volkwagen Beetle, which he had had for nearly ten years. This car had been all over Europe, and was his daily transport.

One day, on Ealing Green, despite plenty of fuel, it just conked out, and refused to turn over or start. He summoned help from a few Sixth Formers, who went with him to the stranded car. Back end open, someone thought to pull the dipstick.....and found.....rust!

Asked why no oil showed on the dipstick, Angus looked puzzled. "It's a Volkswagen. They're air cooled..." he insisted.

Five litres of Halfords' cheapest was poured in, and the good lump roared into action as if nothing had happened.

Bit like the famous Beetle scene in Woody Allen's Sleeper.

[captainhaddock]

Incredible, even more so than the banana skin story of a citroen 2cv oil starved engine.....can't believe them all those stories can you....brings me to my grass strimmer which has fuel with oil, spark....but suddenly refuses to fire at all once of a sudden

[Peter.N.]

The oil pick up being in the bottom of the sump will collect the water first until the level drops low enough for the oil to be picked up, that won't do it a lot of good, especially on a cold engine. I assume people who don't change their oil have more money than sense.

Peter

[Dieselman]

I assume people who don't change their oil have more money than sense.

Peter

Or even less sense than money...

[jeastham]

Cheers all,

Your responses kind of confirm my concerns. I've told him we'll have to drop the sump, and investigate. It looks like the oil pump comes apart (according to the Haynes book of lies, for a similar engine); I've never stripped an oil pump; but I should imagine it'll be a LOT simpler than a Bosch Diesel Injection Pump, that I have had apart, and rebuilt

In his defence; well no defence really; but he's an office jockey; who isn't mechanically-minded. Very much a graduate of the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" school of automotive maintenance. He's learnt his lesson, and won't be making the same mistake again (the expense has been a very good teacher). He's also learned quite a bit about how internal combustion engines work; and his vocabulary of automotive terminology is increasing; though his own terminology does occasionally amuse .

I took a photo of the decanted oil/water, from the sump :




As I'm typing this; I'm getting a moment of realisation, and a sinking feeling.....

Each plastic container is 5 litres, and you can see where the oil/water is starting to separate out (after around 20 minutes of standing). By my reckoning; the container on the left is half full of water, which is 2.5 litres, with another litre (ball-park) in the other container. So that's 3.5 litres of water, out of an approximate total of 9 litres of oil/water mix.

According to the Haynes B.O.L. (and the owner's handbook); the oil capacity, including filter, is 4 litres. Houston; we have a problem !!

I'm now wondering whether there is a more serious problem; like a cracked block or head; given that it went all winter, with only tap-water for coolant.

The head was stripped, cleaned, and skimmed; would it have been pressure-tested as a matter of course?

Is there a way of pressure-testing the block?

There's obviously something seriously awry; for the sump to have held more than twice its recommended capacity; much of which was water.

Where should I be investigating next ?

Thoughts / Advice invited

Justin

[Dieselman]

I think you might be right about the block. The head wouldn't have been pressure tested as a matter of course.

The way forward now is to check the oil pump, then run the engine and ensure there is circulation before filling the water system. If all is well, fill with water and observe for bubbles int he header tank and any oil emulsion.
It's possible the head lifted due to ice, but a crack is possible.

A replacement engine would have been a better solution than a rebuild of one with numerous problems to repair.

[jeastham]

A replacement engine would have been a better solution than a rebuild of one with numerous problems to repair.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It started out as suspected cam-belt failure. Took the timing covers off, and the belt was in-tact. Then it became apparent that the timing was out; so suspicions fell towards the tensioner. Figuring that the quickest way of attempting a fix was to throw a new timing-belt and water-pump on, along with new tensioner and idler; the engine still refused to fire (when timed correctly). Suspicions now turned to one or more bent valves. Removed inlet manifold, and all 8 inlet valves checked out fine (by squirting WD40 on top of closed valves, and seeing if the WD40 seeped away). Being a transverse engine, we couldn't see/access the 8 exhaust valves. We then had access to some equipment; to conduct a "leakage test", and it then became obvious that we were dealing with bent valves on the exhaust side. We'd already ascertained little or no compression, across all four cylinders. So we removed the head, and had it stripped, cleaned, skimmed, and rebuilt; and that's when we discovered the run bearing. My mate took advice from the machine-shop, and his garage-owning neighbour, who said that while the bearing had run; it shouldn't prevent the engine from running; or get any worse, providing it was lubricated.

So come last Saturday, designated "H-day" (for refitting the rebuilt head - I had my reservations, but it's his call); we were unable to proceed, because the "cam-shaft oil-supply non-return valve", that sits in the under-side of the head, didn't fit into its aperture (WAY too big). He'd ordered a new one; as we couldn't find one in the head, on the floor, or anywhere else. Not even sure if it's supposed to have one; but couldn't proceed until we knew for sure. So as H-day was on stop; we dropped the oil; and so that particular can of worms got opened.

One thing after another; as can be the case, sometimes. And throughout the proceedings; the full horror of his auto-abuse has come to light. Knowing what I know now; I would have taken a different course of action, for sure.

The head is still off; so I'm inclined to get that pressure-tested; if it can be done fully assembled. (Never had to have a head pressure-tested)

If there's a way of pressure-testing the block, in situe, then I'm inclinded to have my mate do that.

The sump will be removed, and the oil-pump checked/over-hauled, and the pump drive-chain and crank inspected.

I'm not looking to cut corners; I'm trying to do what needs to be done, to get it running properly (though he's got his own way with the exhaust cam, head and cam housing).

I did look (on eBay) for replacement engines; and there was nothing under £1300, and nothing in the UK. Add to that; his engine is a EW10A-RFJ, and we learned yesterday (from Peugeot dealer) that there are FOUR variants !

Also; bear in mind; I'm a key-basher; I install/maintain/fix Linux computers and SANs (Storage-Area Networks). So pulling engines to bits, and rebuilding them isn't my day job.

We are, where we are; and I welcome/appreciate the advice

Justin