My First Car - Y3 2.1TD

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Mitki4a
Can find the S1 radio
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My First Car - Y3 2.1TD

Post by Mitki4a » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:37 pm

Hi everyone, greetings from Bulgaria
I have just bought my first car and it is a 1992 XM 2.1TD :D
Was looking for a Phase 1 BX with the crazy dash and all, but they are very rare and the few I went to check out needed way too much work.

This 1000 euro XM came up and I knew I had to get it :D I got it from its 1st owner since new, it is at 211k km and been maintained fairly well but hadn't been driven much in the last 2-3 years. Has its fair share of scuffs and dents but interior and overall mechanicals seem to be in good condition.
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Since this is the first and so far only hydropneumatic Citroen I have driven, I have a couple questions and concerns.
Please bear with me, any info and help would be appreciated greatly.

Firstly, according to the documents this is an early Feb '92 car, yet it has the 2 spoke steering wheel and 'Normal' - 'Sport' switch (Hydractive II?).
As far as I know only '93 XMs had that and were known as 'Phase 1.5'. Been trying to find a decent vin decoder online but to no avail. If anyone could assist with finding a spec sheet would be awesome ;) VIN is VF7Y3AK0002AK5507
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In any case, sourcing a good 1 spoke wheel (with buttons) is high on the priority list :lol:

I have been reading up on the strut top saga that's plaguing these cars. Mine look to be decent, with a spot of rot on one side, you can see in the picture.
I'm more concerned with the rubber part, with one of them not having a particularly good look. If anyone can chime in on this, if it is a clear sign of imminent doom and where/how I could find replacement parts.
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Body itself seems to be mostly solid with some dents around the sill and properly bent jacking points :cry:
Front wings have started to rot right behind the front wheels, which I imagine is a common sight.
There is a weird black layer on the bottom half of the sill which I haven't seen on other XMs
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Onto mechanical stuff:

I had the car in for a service 2 weeks back and got the spheres recharged. Definitely seems to ride better but since I have not driven another XM before it is hard for me to benchmark. Sometimes I feel like the ride is a bit inconsistent. Might be that it is switching to hard more often than it needs to. I read somewhere you could hear it buzz on the radio at 700mhz but couldn't really hear anything from the brief time I tried.
Car seems to go up and down without problems and I have not had any errors come up on the display.
Occasionally when stopped at a light, rear would go up a little and come down shortly after I set off. Main issue regarding hydraulics is the steering is a bit notchy sometimes, like it is losing power steering. Mechanic told me it may be that the main valve unit may need refreshing but since parts are so scarce, he was afraid to take it apart.

Other things that aren't working correctly :
I've got this part of the heater that I need to swap in, as one of the switches doesn't work, maybe a Haynes manual would help there :D
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I also get the compulsory rear stop lamp warning, even though they are working, which I've heard is a common issue.
My oil level gauge doesn't work, it lights up but needle doesn't move.
Throttle is very choppy. Especially under 2k rpm getting on and off throttle smoothly is nearly impossible, not sure where the issue may be or it is the way it is :roll:

And I'm not exactly sure how I am supposed to close the sunroof. If it is fully open, when I hold the forward arrow it simply goes past the closed position and pops up at the back. I have to just slowly stab the button and look from the outside until it seems flush with the roof. Pretty sure that's not how it is supposed to be operated.

Oh I nearly forgot - I'm on the lookout for cool y3 hubcaps, if i can't find them locally, I may be interested if someone wants to get rid of theirs 8-)

Thanks for having the patience to read through all this :lol: it has been a lot of fun and a great daily so far but there's a lot to learn too.

Julianw
Knows how to use the parking brake
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:45 pm
Orga / RP numbers: 4937

Re: My First Car - Y3 2.1TD

Post by Julianw » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:55 pm

Iirc, the oil level gauge works for a few seconds after you turn the ignition on, then turns off again.

As for the sunroof, I'd say the pawl that rotates with the driven gear has either been put back in the wrong position, or the gear has jumped some teeth with respect to the drive chain that moves the roof. Iirc the pawl has an indentation that actuates a microswitch and should coincide with the 'home' position of the roof. With the pawl out of sync with the drive chain, the roof no longer stops at the correct position...
Can anyone confirm my description is correct? It's ages since I had one of these in bits...

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White Exec
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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:38 pm
Orga / RP numbers: RP7165
1996 2.5TD saloon, Exclusive, Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime, Sable
Location: ex-Ealing, Cheshire, W.Sussex & Surrey. Now living in Sayalonga (Malaga, Spain)

Re: My First Car - Y3 2.1TD

Post by White Exec » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:24 pm

Hi Mitki, and welcome.
So, quite something for a first car!

Have looked up the ex-factory spec for the car (from your VIN), and details are as follows:
Mitki's XM Y3 2.1 characteristics.pdf
RP no. is 6030, which translates into a build date of 13 May 1993.

Lots of others will chip in (we do this!).
Sill anti-gravel/scuff paint looks original. One brand for sale here is actually called Teknox!

Plenty of useful info here, so keep posting :)
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Last edited by White Exec on Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003

Mitki4a
Can find the S1 radio
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Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:37 pm

Re: My First Car - Y3 2.1TD

Post by Mitki4a » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:44 pm

Hi Julian, I can confirm the oil level gauge doesn't move at all.

@WhiteExec Thanks for that spec sheet, very interesting. Sill is definitely a bit of a mess, at least doesn't seem to be badly rotten but it has taken some hits.

DownUnderXM
Knows how to use the parking brake
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Orga / RP numbers: RP 8603
2000 ES9J V6, 4HP20 auto, Gris Quartz hatchback

Re: My First Car - Y3 2.1TD

Post by DownUnderXM » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:26 am

Just on the subject of the power steering - one issue that can cause the symptom you describe would be a leak in the suction line, so that the hydraulic pump sucks in some air. A replacement suction line (with good quality clamps both ends) fixed a similar problem I had with a Xantia.

Re. the strut tops - you need to jack the car up and take the front wheels off so that you can get a proper look from below. I am sure others will explain this better, but it is a bad sign if the strut gaiter doesn't stay up. The strut top (seen from below) should be round. If it is oval then replace/refurbish straight away.

Mitki4a
Can find the S1 radio
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:37 pm

Re: My First Car - Y3 2.1TD

Post by Mitki4a » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:42 am

DownUnderXM wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:26 am
Just on the subject of the power steering - one issue that can cause the symptom you describe would be a leak in the suction line, so that the hydraulic pump sucks in some air. A replacement suction line (with good quality clamps both ends) fixed a similar problem I had with a Xantia.

Re. the strut tops - you need to jack the car up and take the front wheels off so that you can get a proper look from below. I am sure others will explain this better, but it is a bad sign if the strut gaiter doesn't stay up. The strut top (seen from below) should be round. If it is oval then replace/refurbish straight away.
Today when I was parking and steering at slow speed probably 80% of the time I didn't have power steering. I also got a 'Hydraulic pressure' error for a second or two. Could you explain where exactly is that suction line?

Dieselman
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Re: My First Car - Y3 2.1TD

Post by Dieselman » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:16 am

Hi,
That's a great first car and mandarin is one of the best colours for a S1 Xm.

The interior is correct for the model year...sonata seats and twin spoke wheel.

The strut tops look very good from above, to check below initially raise the car to full height and check the metal. To check the rubber properly have both front wheels hanging.
On the top cut off any peeling rubber and apply paint. Water creeping under the rubber is what rots the steel plate.

The power steering issue sounds like the pump suction pipe is loose...tighten the clamp bands until the pipe can't be twisted on the spigots.
Also check the pump drive belt hasn't lost a section of material, as that can stall the belt at idle conditions due to the belt going slack.

The rear of the car rising under braking is due to air in the rear brakes since the spheres were removed and refitted.
Bleed the brakes after sorting the suction pipe.
To bleed just run the engine and lock the brake pedal down, then undo each bleed nipple in turn.

The varying hydraulic pressure is probably the cause of the random hard suspension, but read the codes with a blink code reader, check the earths are sound, and if it still persists, fit warning LEDs.
Since your car has H2 suspension, the diodes in the electrovalves might have failed. Fit a pair of diodes into the loom near the Ecu as a safeguard.

Blink code reader.
http://www.club-xm.co.uk/forum/viewtopi ... 368#p85892

The heater control motor lives under the left side of the dashboard. You should be able to obtain access by removing the lower dash panel.

The oil level gauge sender has probably failed.
It is mounted on the back of the engine block.

For the jerky pull away, check the engine and torque mounts aren't worn out, remove the damper from the pump lever, check the cable is adjusted properly and ensure there is no air entering the fuel system.
If all that fails...errm...learn to drive.

I should have some wheel-trims.
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

Mitki4a
Can find the S1 radio
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:37 pm

Re: My First Car - Y3 2.1TD

Post by Mitki4a » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:20 am

Dieselman wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:16 am
Hi,
That's a great first car and mandarin is one of the best colours for a S1 Xm.

The interior is correct for the model year...sonata seats and twin spoke wheel.

The strut tops look very good from above, to check below initially raise the car to full height and check the metal. To check the rubber properly have both front wheels hanging.
On the top cut off any peeling rubber and apply paint. Water creeping under the rubber is what rots the steel plate.

The power steering issue sounds like the pump suction pipe is loose...tighten the clamp bands until the pipe can't be twisted on the spigots.
Also check the pump drive belt hasn't lost a section of material, as that can stall the belt at idle conditions due to the belt going slack.

The rear of the car rising under braking is due to air in the rear brakes since the spheres were removed and refitted.
Bleed the brakes after sorting the suction pipe.
To bleed just run the engine and lock the brake pedal down, then undo each bleed nipple in turn.

The varying hydraulic pressure is probably the cause of the random hard suspension, but read the codes with a blink code reader, check the earths are sound, and if it still persists, fit warning LEDs.
Since your car has H2 suspension, the diodes in the electrovalves might have failed. Fit a pair of diodes into the loom near the Ecu as a safeguard.

Blink code reader.
http://www.club-xm.co.uk/forum/viewtopi ... 368#p85892

The heater control motor lives under the left side of the dashboard. You should be able to obtain access by removing the lower dash panel.

The oil level gauge sender has probably failed.
It is mounted on the back of the engine block.

For the jerky pull away, check the engine and torque mounts aren't worn out, remove the damper from the pump lever, check the cable is adjusted properly and ensure there is no air entering the fuel system.
If all that fails...errm...learn to drive.

I should have some wheel-trims.
Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I will have it in a shop next month and will have things checked over. As I said I'm a newbie here and haven't got any real experience working on cars. Sure I've sorted some interior stuff but for more specific mechanicals I'll have to source a manual.

Are you saying that the peeling rubber on top isn't structural and just there to keep moisture from getting in?

I did a quick peek at the struts from below and metal seems solid. To check the rubber do I have to disassemble anything, or just have it on a lift with wheels hanging?
Image
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Mitki4a
Can find the S1 radio
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:37 pm

Re: My First Car - Y3 2.1TD

Post by Mitki4a » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:45 pm

Update:

Ride is definitely getting worse and car was reluctant to rise up to the highest position. I also got a brake pressure loss warning. I checked over the pipes going into the LHM reservoir, and pump drive belt and they all seem fine. Could anyone point out where exactly is the pump suction line?

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White Exec
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Posts: 6009
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:38 pm
Orga / RP numbers: RP7165
1996 2.5TD saloon, Exclusive, Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime, Sable
Location: ex-Ealing, Cheshire, W.Sussex & Surrey. Now living in Sayalonga (Malaga, Spain)

Re: My First Car - Y3 2.1TD

Post by White Exec » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:15 pm

Check the LHM level
Car on Highest setting, and the orange plastic disc (not the gold metal one) should be between the two red lines.
The level indicator is purely mechanical (a float) - check it isn't stuck by removing it: unplug, and rotate about 90deg anticlockwise; lifts out, and can be checked for free movement.

"Brake pressure loss" warning
Normal to get this if the car hasn't been used for a few days, and the engine is started. Should extinguish within half a minute or so.
Warning much more likely if the car is put to High setting shortly after starting. There is a limit to how much fluid at pressure the pump can deliver quickly from a cold (sunk) start-up.

Pump suction line
This is the larger flexible pipe running from the reservoir to the pump. This pipe is under suction, and it is important that there is no air ingress at the joints at either end. If length allows, cut the ends(s) off and remake the joints. Best not to use worm-type/jubilee clips, as they distort the round pipe. Use genuinely circular hose clips, either screw or crimp type.

Rough ride
Often caused by air in the hudraulic system.
Check for air in the fluid by dipping a sample from the reservoir (after the car has been driven for a short while) using a small clear container. There must be no foaming, and only a very few microscopic bubbles.
Air in fluid can result in a notchy feel to the steering, or slightly heavy steering. Air trapped in the back suspension results in a crashy back end (over sudden small ridges in road surface) and back end rising/falling unexpectedly when braking/coming to a halt.

Check reservoir etc for air, then bleed the system properly:

- Throw an extra 1L of LHM into the reservoir
- Do a few Citrobics - high, low, high, low - and put the suspension of highest
- While on highest, lift all four wheels off the ground, and remove them - i.e. hubs hanging
- With engine running, keep light pressure on the brake pedal (heavy weight or length of wood between pedal and seat front)
- Open the caliper bleed screws in this order: RR, RL, FR, FL, and bleed off until clear fluid (no air) appears from each. Expect to bleed off around 1L from RR, which bleeds most of the system - much less from all the others.
- Turn off engine, refit wheels, return to ground, check the LHM level again.

All the brake calipers are "dead legs" where air can become trapped. The rear brakes are hydraulically fed from the rear suspension (rear braking effort is proportional to the load!), which is why it's important to have that end bled properly.

You can also check that the two nylon fine filters are present (and not damaged/blocked/out-of-position) in the LHM reservoir. These filters not only catch larger dirt particles, but also have the important job of de-aerating (breaking up bubbles) in the returning fluid, so it doesn't get recirculated into the system. Both filters still available from Citroen.

If the LHM fluid is dirty (should be clear bright green), worth running the car on Total Hydraurincage for a few months. Shout if you need to do this.
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003

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