Hello Chaps....new owner

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White Exec
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Orga / RP numbers: RP7165
1996 2.5TD saloon, Exclusive, Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime, Sable Phenicien
Location: ex-Ealing, Cheshire, W.Sussex & Surrey. Now living in Sayalonga (Malaga, Spain)

Re: Hello Chaps....new owner

Post by White Exec » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:34 pm

If that photo is of the double injection relay, and its connector, then the relay pins look all in one piece, but desperately need cleaning up. Use contact cleaner, cotton buds, and a fine emery board to get back to clean metal. Remove all cleaning residue.

That may be the cause of the problem, however, what you must check is that the two +12 supplies to the relay are both present:
- permanent Batt+ to pins 15,8,14,11, via F31
- + to pin 2, via IGN sw

John is right to detail that there were lots of variations of that double relay. Bitron were the original makers, but current replacement types will probably be labelled Omron (who now own Bitron). Type 240.104 was also fitted to the 2.5 here, and its replacement is 240.101, Citroen pt.no. 1920 3X. This is still available, and is fitted across a long list of vehicles. The internal wiring diagram (moulded into the cover) is the same as 240.104.

These relays (in particular the diodes in them), are a known failure point - sometimes provoked into failure by something else - and can prevent an engine from starting, or dealing with a keypad (if present) properly.

Worth obtaining a replacement from Citroen, but you must check those supply voltages first. Without them, it cannot work.
You should look at this first, Alasdair, as without that relay operating, there can be no fuel injection.

Do the checking with a small test lamp (eg 12v 5W), with the relay unplugged, on the connector socket - one end of the test lamp to a reliable Ground. Report back what you find.
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003

Dieselman
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Re: Hello Chaps....new owner

Post by Dieselman » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:55 am

Stickfinger wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:46 pm
I need "basic teaching" with electrics :)


Dug out the ignition switch from my spares v.6 Activa and after playing --Hunt the retaining screws-- with the XM's lower plastic covers I fitted the Activa one to the XM. = Same result, no starter no clicks from the ignition relay.

I only get power (1.9v) on pin No 11
3453456345634.jpg
768568785688.jpg

I am concerned that (plug side) 12/13/14/15 are damaged however.
The photo is too close to see what it is. Is that a connector in the loom near the ignition switch, or the double injection relay socket?

If it's the double injection socket, the female contacts do appear burned out, but that may be just be the lighting. You can buy the contacts and re-pin the connector. These are probably Timer type contacts.
It's a bit odd as the connector carries the main power shared on pins 8 and 15. 15 appears bad, 8 appears perfect.

White-exec has detailed the pins to check for power.

The way the circuit diagram works is the connectors and wires are colour coded and nuumbered for ease of use.
Example:
The connector for the double injection relay is coloured black, so the diagram has a black block at the terminal
The connector is a 15 pin connector, so the upper line of numbers = 15.
The pin you are looking for is the lower line of numbers. e.g.15.
The wire colours are the circles next to the connector terminals. e.g Pin 15 is orange.

Any terminations listed as m, m1, m2, m3...are engine and body ground points.

The outputs from the power inputs are:
8+15 goes to pin 5 +4...Ecu power, pin 13...Egr valve, Pin 6...N/c.

The input on Pin 2 goes to Pin 10...Ecu power.


I wouldn't bother about the double injecion relay for now, other than to check for power at fuse F31.

Concentrate on the Ign switch and no starter power for now, as it won't do anything without Ign power, and this is a simple circuit.

The Ign switch and F31 are both fed power from a single supply inside the main fuesbox.
The Ign is fed from a black 2 pin connector on pin 1, with a white cable.

The feed to the fusebox for IGN and F31 is a black 2 pin connector and both pins are used for this. The cable colour is black for both cables.
The feed for the fusebox is straight from the battery.

These are high current circuits, hence testing with a headlamp bulb is suitable. A headlamp bulb is 55 watts. 55w divide by 12v ~ 4.5 Amps...well within the capabilities of the wiring and connectors.

I suspect that when the timing belt snapped and the engine stopped, the driver cranked...and cranked...and cranked, the starter, until a cable or connector overheated and it wouldn't crank any more.

I have attached page 8-9/116 of the circuit diagram for reference.
The component and wiring layout chart is on page 6-7/116.
If you haven't already, download the complete circuit diagram set from my post on Page 11 of this thread.

Using a test lamp check both positive and negative terminals from the battery, both on the battery posts and on the cable connectors, +12v to body and engine Gnd, then use the body to check any other power cables around the car.
I have experienced no start where the dashboard lamps come on perfectly, but once you try to start, the power just dies. This was due to the negative battery cables not making good contact inside the battery clamps, even though the screw terminals were tight, so test both +ve and -ve cables under load. The problem could be on the -ve/Gnd side.
Check for voltage drop/resistance between the battery terminals and the next connectors in the line, i.e body Gnd for -ve and the next connection for the +ve side. A test lamp connected in parallel is good for this, the lamp should be out, as the main cable should be carrying all the power...any glowing indicates voltage drop (potential difference) across the wiring. This may also be felt as heat at the wire, or connector.
Try wiggling the battery cables with the ignition on to see if this produces power.

Go backwards from the Ign switch and F31 and I think you will find the problem.

Simple, low wattage test lamps, like these https://www.toolstation.com/car-light-t ... iMEALw_wcB are great for checking power in circuits. Buy 3, or 4 so you can test multiple feeds at once.

Don't buy a digital, or LED based test lamp. The internal resistance is the same as a DMM, so they won't load a circuit and so produce false readings.

Car electrics are generally pretty simple. You just need to have a go, then practice regularly, to build confidence.
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92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
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90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
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White Exec
Citroen God!
Posts: 6642
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:38 pm
Orga / RP numbers: RP7165
1996 2.5TD saloon, Exclusive, Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime, Sable Phenicien
Location: ex-Ealing, Cheshire, W.Sussex & Surrey. Now living in Sayalonga (Malaga, Spain)

Re: Hello Chaps....new owner

Post by White Exec » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:18 am

Just an important word of caution:
Under no circumstances unplug (or re-connect) the main engine (injection) ECU with the battery still connected.
Always disconnect battery (ideally both terminals, according to Citroen) first.
Failure to do so can damage the ECU and the double injection relay.
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003

Stickfinger
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Re: Hello Chaps....new owner

Post by Stickfinger » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:51 pm

Taken advice and tested the plug

ZERO on all but 8 @ 1.9volts (confirms my last test)
BUT.......speaking to Jim he said "That does not look right"....."that plug is short on a number of wires".....then after he checked it seems at some point the plugs have been switched between the Ignition Relay and the Cruse Control ECU (The plugs are identical)

I thus tested the Cruse Control relay plug, ...on that I have:
Ign OFF : 15,8,14,11
Ign On : + 2 :and 15,8,14,11

BINGO......well spotted Jim.

BUT

Still no start on the key, ...BUT....I have yet to test starting via the fly-lead to the solenoid as I have to take a nice old gent (Mums bubble friend) to have a eye test.

At the moment it looks like two problems, relays swapped when they put it back together after the cam belt jumping, and another possible Ignition starter wiring problem.........fingers crossed it starts on the fly-lead.

xmexclusive
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Re: Hello Chaps....new owner

Post by xmexclusive » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:41 pm

The missing contacts in your double relay are:-
12 - Not important as wiring diagram shows no wire fitted.
13 - Feeds recycling electrovalve (not all EPIC 's have this fitted) so unlikely to be critical.
14 - CRITICAL as it operates one of the two relays in the double injection relay.
15 - Not important as it is just a parallel supply to pin 8.

User avatar
White Exec
Citroen God!
Posts: 6642
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:38 pm
Orga / RP numbers: RP7165
1996 2.5TD saloon, Exclusive, Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime, Sable Phenicien
Location: ex-Ealing, Cheshire, W.Sussex & Surrey. Now living in Sayalonga (Malaga, Spain)

Re: Hello Chaps....new owner

Post by White Exec » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:04 pm

Even if those two (15-way black) relay sockets are mechanically identical**, there is one basic electrical difference between them (apart from checking pin/colour usage), which should be easy to check:
Pin 8 is Gnd on the cruise control relay socket
Pin 8 is +12 permanent Batt+ on the injection relay socket.

That should tell them apart.

** Are they located anywhere near each other on the car?
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003

Dieselman
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Re: Hello Chaps....new owner

Post by Dieselman » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:50 am

Stickfinger wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:51 pm
Taken advice and tested the plug

ZERO on all but 8 @ 1.9volts (confirms my last test)
BUT.......speaking to Jim he said "That does not look right"....."that plug is short on a number of wires".....then after he checked it seems at some point the plugs have been switched between the Ignition Relay and the Cruse Control ECU (The plugs are identical)

I thus tested the Cruse Control relay plug, ...on that I have:
Ign OFF : 15,8,14,11
Ign On : + 2 :and 15,8,14,11

BINGO......well spotted Jim.

BUT

Still no start on the key, ...BUT....I have yet to test starting via the fly-lead to the solenoid as I have to take a nice old gent (Mums bubble friend) to have a eye test.

At the moment it looks like two problems, relays swapped when they put it back together after the cam belt jumping, and another possible Ignition starter wiring problem.........fingers crossed it starts on the fly-lead.
Crickey, that's an odd issue, there is usually a keyway on the connector to stop that happening. I wonder why they disconnected them at all?..certainly not necessaary to diagnose a snapped timing belt and they are at the opposite side of the engine bay.

The no starter issue is probably the gearbox selector switch is stuck. Try switching on the ignition and rattling the selector lever through the full range while watching the display on the dashboard. It should display the currently selected position.

Power is fed from the Ign switch via F19. It then splits into the gear selector switch on 3 inputs. The switch has 3 sets of contacts, one for display, one for the reverse lights, one for the starter inhibit relay.
This relay is shown as on the left inner wing...not behind the headlamp, as on S1 cars.

If you can't get the relay to function you can just pull it out and bridge the main contacts...but be careful to ensure the car is in either Park, or Neutral, and the park brake is applied, before turning the key.

I wonder if we will see any more electrical shenanigans?

Please see attached circuit diagram for the HP18 gearbox. Pages 88-89/116 of Gabor's circuit diagram PDF.
Apologies for the diagrams coming out in portrate. You can right click and rotate to Landscape for easy reading.
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92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

xmexclusive
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Re: Hello Chaps....new owner

Post by xmexclusive » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:28 am

The information from "Jim" is quite interesting but there is a risk that it will turn out to be a wild goose chase.
My thoughts are:-
The plugs for the double injection relay are quite difficult to remove wires from.
Difficult but just possible with the Citroen spring type but these ceased to be used on XM's in 1996.
Impossible with the totally sealed in PSA plastic push lock type then used and which a "S" reg XM will have.
I think that means those wires were probably missing on the original loom.
The cruise circuits have no effect and cannot interfere with starting.
The cruise installation is factory fitted using the historic Citroen Vacuum so no one will have played with that wiring either.
(Never understood Citroen logic with this as EPIC ECU's have electronic cruise routines just like the 2.5TD's).
The car ran as is before the belts broke so it should run again as is.
Research its history again after belt break to positively prove the wiring was altered, by who and why.
If not then do not try to repair something that was working.
That leaves the problem of the missing wires in the double injection relay plug.
They do not match the 2.1 EPIC wiring diagram being referred to so this needs an explanation.
Two questions need answering:
Is it the correct wiring diagram for this late model.
Is it the correct double injection relay for this models wiring.
Best done before the car is rewired to make sorting much more difficult.

John

Dieselman
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Re: Hello Chaps....new owner

Post by Dieselman » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:40 am

xmexclusive wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:28 am
The information from "Jim" is quite interesting but there is a risk that it will turn out to be a wild goose chase.
My thoughts are:-
The plugs for the double injection relay are quite difficult to remove wires from.
Difficult but just possible with the Citroen spring type but these ceased to be used on XM's in 1996.
Impossible with the totally sealed in PSA plastic push lock type then used and which a "S" reg XM will have.
I think that means those wires were probably missing on the original loom.
The cruise circuits have no effect and cannot interfere with starting.
The cruise installation is factory fitted using the historic Citroen Vacuum so no one will have played with that wiring either.
(Never understood Citroen logic with this as EPIC ECU's have electronic cruise routines just like the 2.5TD's).
The car ran as is before the belts broke so it should run again as is.
Research its history again after belt break to positively prove the wiring was altered, by who and why.
If not then do not try to repair something that was working.
That leaves the problem of the missing wires in the double injection relay plug.
They do not match the 2.1 EPIC wiring diagram being referred to so this needs an explanation.
Two questions need answering:
Is it the correct wiring diagram for this late model.
Is it the correct double injection relay for this models wiring.
Best done before the car is rewired to make sorting much more difficult.

John
I understood the post to be saying that the female plugs for the Criuse control ECU and the Injection double relay, are physically the same and had been swapped over to the incorrect device, with no alteration of wiring in the plugs having taken place.

Am I mistaken?
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

xmexclusive
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Re: Hello Chaps....new owner

Post by xmexclusive » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:44 am

Is the shunt (wide bridge contact fuse link) correctly fitted to the middle of the main fuse board.
These contact bridges and matching fuse boards were only fitted to late XM's.
This option is to protect the battery life during delivery and on stored cars.
The bridge fits between the inner ends of two standard fuse slots.
Normal fuses can be fitted to each of those standard slots but they have no function.
They are intended to be left empty or take the bridge shunt for normal running of the car.

Has someone removed the bridge shunt?
This cuts power to fuse F31 and the double injection relay to minimise power draw on storage.

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