New XM owner in Oregon USA

New to the forum? Feel free to introduce yourself / your cars. Also have a look for any frequently asked questions and information.
Dieselman
Global Moderator
Posts: 11530
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:44 pm

Re: New XM owner in Oregon USA

Post by Dieselman » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:47 am

xantia_v6 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:07 am
I think that you will find that the injection relay (807) is only energised while the engine is cranking or running. This is standard behaviour for all petrol injection systems to stop fuel flow in the case of an accident which cuts a high pressure fuel line (which would inherently stop the engine).

I would agree with the advice to give the fuel pump a good thump.
There should be a short duration voltage pulse (about 1 second) to prime the pump at Ignition on, followed by continuous voltage when either cranking or running.
The short duration power application is probably too short for a multi meter to detect.

The relay is controlled by the ECU to accommodate this. Bridging the relay contacts will give a continuous voltage for testing the pump.
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

xantia_v6
XM Guru
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:09 pm
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand or Beaune, France

Re: New XM owner in Oregon USA

Post by xantia_v6 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:04 pm

Dieselman wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:26 am
White Exec wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:31 am
Yes, but copyright still persists in these documents.
I don't think the volume of work covered in these cases applies. These are not someones copyrighted idea, but widely circulated technical information, which is now obsolete in both terms of concept and commercial aspect. The manufacturer has wholesale abandoned these products.

I definitely believe that our use falls under "Fair dealing." I have emboldened the sections that would cover this.

Extract from https://www.whoishostingthis.com/resour ... ght-guide/

In England and the United Kingdom, the guidelines are more specific than in the US or Canada, similar to the Australian rules. Fair Dealing there is limited to:

Non-commercial research and private study
Criticism, review, and quotation

News reporting
Satire and parody
Illustration for teaching


I think we, as individuals, need to make a decision that we are either going to help posters that are struggling to obtain information and assistance with problems on their XM's, or we aren't.
Keeping necessary information within a restricted "club" of people, while other forum members struggle, doesn't seem correct.

For Series 1 models, the technical information is very difficult to source. This forum is meant to be the primary source of information.
If some members have information for Series 1 cars and are never going to own one, why keep the material? Why not pass the information onto those that will make use of it?
But to quote from your same source (https://www.whoishostingthis.com/resour ... ght-guide/):
Things that DO NOT make something Fair Use
There are a number of common misconceptions about what circumstances might cause a particular usage to be considered “Fair” or not.
  • Age of the work — It does not matter if the work is about to go out of copyright next year. It does not matter if the author has been dead for a long time. Copyright is binary: something either is or is not under copyright.
  • Out of Print — Unfortunately, copyrighted material is sometimes very hard to obtain. Books go out of print. Recordings might only be available on old phonograph records. Movies might have never been released into modern formats. None of those reasons have any effect on the nature of the copyright protection, or bear any influence on whether your usage is Fair or not.
  • Religious Use — If you want to copy sheet music for a church service, that does NOT qualify as Fair Use.
  • Non-profit Use — A non-profit organization may be given a little more deference or benefit of the doubt in unclear cases, but a non-profit organization isn’t exempt from copyright law. You can’t sell copies of protected material for a fundraiser or perform a copyrighted play without paying for it.
  • Personal Use — The fact that you aren’t planning to sell copies or use it for a commercial purpose does not automatically qualify something as Fair Use. You can’t copy videos, albums, or books from the library or your friends in order to add them to your personal collection
1999 XM Exclusive V6 24V ES9 Manual (LHD) 105,000 km
1997 Xantia Exclusive V6 (RHD) 45,000 miles

Dieselman
Global Moderator
Posts: 11530
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:44 pm

Re: New XM owner in Oregon USA

Post by Dieselman » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:51 pm

Hi.
I saw all that before my previous posting. Having read it again still don't see any breach of copyright in supplying circuit diagrams to those in need.

I believe you are confusing publishing complete concept material with out of date, commonly used and distributed, commercial, technical material.
In the case of books, music and film there is a continuing royalty to pay to the author, hence they come under further usage licence.

I think we are in danger of polluting the thread and as such won't be contributing any further to posts regarding copyright.

Mike needed some information I found I had, so I posted it up for him.

If others that have that information would rather hold onto that information, but not pass it on, then that is their choice.
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

Dieselman
Global Moderator
Posts: 11530
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:44 pm

Re: New XM owner in Oregon USA

Post by Dieselman » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:28 pm

If you do need a new pump, the updated Bosch p/n is 0 580 314 066.
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

User avatar
White Exec
Citroen God!
Posts: 5878
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:38 pm
Orga / RP numbers: RP7165
1996 2.5TD saloon, Exclusive, Polar White
Location: ex-Ealing, Cheshire, W.Sussex & Surrey. Now living in Sayalonga (Malaga, Spain)

Re: New XM owner in Oregon USA

Post by White Exec » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:44 pm

It would be a good idea if the posts above relating to copyright were transferred into a separate thread.
It is important stuff, and needs to be discussed.
Perhaps Will could shift the posts?
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003

User avatar
White Exec
Citroen God!
Posts: 5878
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:38 pm
Orga / RP numbers: RP7165
1996 2.5TD saloon, Exclusive, Polar White
Location: ex-Ealing, Cheshire, W.Sussex & Surrey. Now living in Sayalonga (Malaga, Spain)

Re: New XM owner in Oregon USA

Post by White Exec » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:04 pm

Mike/Will,

You are right: I had looked at 515-02/40, and thought that the inj double relay (#807) had its fuel pump solenoid coil permanently earthed, with other end to IGN sw+ 'M'.
As you say, the ground side of the coil goes to the ECU, so it is as you describe.
1 sec of priming doesn't seem very long...
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003

xmexclusive
Global Moderator
Posts: 5875
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:11 am

Re: New XM owner in Oregon USA

Post by xmexclusive » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:33 pm

The suggestion is made earlier that members with only Mk 2 cars should pass on the Mk 1 workshop manual volumes they have.
It fails to understand how the XM workshop manuals were structured.
Despite the fact of being made up of loose leave pages and separate volumes the manual does in fact operate as a single document.
Once issued subject matter is not repeated so the specific Series 2 volumes comprise difference sheets not full working manuals.
As a result the earlier volumes remain very important to owners even if their interest is only in Series 2 XM's.

citroenfa
Knows how to use the parking brake
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:57 pm
Orga / RP numbers: 5LIN461

Re: New XM owner in Oregon USA

Post by citroenfa » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:48 pm

Hi Mixedgas - Actually Dave and Andre brought in 52 (as I was told by Dave Burnham) - two were pretty much totaled getting the cars to pass USA impact tests. Pauline and I have one of them here in LA. Another quite major thing to check is the condition of the suspension struts for the front suspension. The factory originals had a nasty habit of collapsing, sending the front hydraulic components, sphere and all, into the bottom of the car's hood. Not a pleasant sight. More info on the problem and cure in the hydraulic section of the site.

Having, currently, a very nice DS21 Pallas (BVH), as well as a 69 Break and 85 2CV as well as the XM can tell you the XM is a quite nice car. Sort of like driving an SM with a LOT of rear seat room :). OTOH I have to say I really do miss the D/SM brake control. Feels like my foot is going to go through the floor boards before the car actually begins to stop. As to ride comfort, even in the 'comfort' mode it still rides hard compared to the DS. OTOH I am using rebuildable spheres with modified replaceable shocks.

Steve in sunny So Cal.
1972 DS21 BVH Pallas, 1969 ID21 Break, 1985 2CV Charleston, 1992 XM V6 Auto. Enough Cits...

mixedgas
Knows how to use the parking brake
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:39 am
Orga / RP numbers: 5586

Re: New XM owner in Oregon USA

Post by mixedgas » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:53 pm

Good morning everyone, just a quick note to say I received the fuel pump assembly from Andre Pol and installed over the weekend. Car fired up on the second try! One million thanks for your assistance!

I've not road-tested the car because I'm waiting to receive / replace new spheres. I note a loud clicking sound which I presume to be the hydraulics cutting in and out. Any thoughts on that sound in the video below? As I mentioned, I'm planning to replace the spheres, drain/fill/bleed the LHM and so this loud clicking sound may go away or attenuate after that work is complete.



(you may have to copy/paste the link to you-tube to see the engine click video)

Thanks again!!!
Mike
1992 Citroen XM, 12 valve V-6 PRV engine, 80K miles, Automatic transmission, Black over Black Leather, Located in Oregon USA. VIN: VF7Y3AG0004AG5872.

Also:
1964 Volvo 544
1989 Ferrari 328 GTS
2011 Toyota Tundra

Dieselman
Global Moderator
Posts: 11530
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:44 pm

Re: New XM owner in Oregon USA

Post by Dieselman » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:07 pm

That engine sounds great.

The clicking does indeed sound like the accumulator sphere is flat/ruptured. The Pump drive belt looks a little slack. Be aware, any slipping and it will very quickly shred itself.

Does the DIRAVI return to centre and does the suspension have any bounce? If they both work those spheres may be OK to use. It would be worth pressure testing them.

Please see attached sphere reference for Series 1 XM with H1 suspension. They use slightly stiffer and different volume spheres to H2 cars.
Standard 2.1TD/V6 spheres are correct for your car, which gives a stiffer ride but incredible handling. You may wish to drill the centre dampers out an extra 0.1mm to remove pitter-patter.

For general spares you don't need to source from a Citroen specialist supplier. Try Spareto in Estonia, they ship worldwide. Carriage costs are per consignment, so order everything you want in one go.
https://spareto.co.uk/
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

Post Reply