Bought my dream car

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Lwdajo
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Re: Bought my dream car

Post by Lwdajo » Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:53 pm

Not as touchy as the 4HP20 then, good to know, thanks.

Dieselman
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Re: Bought my dream car

Post by Dieselman » Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:47 am

xantia_v6 wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:36 pm
Dieselman wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:42 am
The correct ATF for the Zf-HP20 is any equivelant ofthe Total product listed below: Essensially Dexron 3 equivelant. PSA type 339 ATF.

Product line: Total FLUIDE G3

Manufacturer Release: 339 Typ V1,339 TypZ1, VT H55.633539 (G607), ZF TE-ML 04D, ZF TE-ML 14A, ZF TE-ML 17C, ZF TE-ML03D


Oil - manufacturer recommendation: Allison C-4, Dexron IIIG, Mercon, Volvo 97341
THE INFORMATION ABOVE IS TOTALLY INCORRECT
None of the above oils should ever go anywhere near a 4HP20 traansmission.

The only fluid for this transmission is ESSO/Mobil LT 71141 which is available from PSA under part number 9730.AE

The main reason reason that the 4HP20 is very sensitive to oil type is that it has a lock-up torque converter which (for smoothness) is often run with a 4% slippage. A Dextron fluid has the wrong friction coefficient and causes the lock-up clutch to wear, which eventually clogs the (effectively) non-replaceable oil filter to clog up, starving the transmission of fluid pressure, leading to a variety of secondary (often catastrophic) failures.

It is probably a good idea to change the transmission fluid (with LT 71141), but sadly this does not remove the particles which are already starting to block the filter, and the transmission will fail, usually somewhere between 150,000 and 300,000 km.

To change the transmission oil filter, the transmission must be removed from the car. On most models with this transmission, this requires also removing the engine, but I think (having removed and engine transmission from one of these) that there should be just enough clearance on an XM to split the transmission from the engine and lift it separately.

If you want an idea of what is inside the transmission, see CitroJims old site at: http://eastment.net/4hp20/4hp20_introduction.htm (note the navigation is at the bottom right of the page).
ZF don't make transmission fluid and have passed that over to Bosch.

Be aware, the Mobil product reference given above is actually a BMW specification, not a Mobil part number... Specification: BMW LT-71141

Total are the partnered oil supplier for Citroen, so the original fill would have been Total brand.

You may notice ZF-LifeguardFluid 5 is in the below listing, which is the correct fluid for these boxes...per ZF.

https://www.bestpartstore.co.uk/citroen ... sion-fluid


Cross refence approvals from another supplier for 9730.AE.

https://spareto.co.uk/products/014-019- ... ission-oil

Capacity: 1 l Packing Type: Bottle Specification: ZF TE-ML 17C, 02F Specification: ZF TE-ML 11B, 14C Specification: ZF TE-ML 04D, 14B Specification: ZF LIFEGUARDFLUID 5 Specification: VW G 055 025 Specification: VW G 052 990 Specification: VW G 052 162 Specification: VW G 050 160 Specification: Nissan Matic-D/J/K Specification: MB 236.9 Specification: MB 236.6 Specification: MB 236.11 Specification: MB 236.10 Specification: MB 235.71 Specification: MAN 339 Type V2/Z3 Specification: MAN 339 Type V1/Z2 Specification: Frod Mercon, MerconV Specification: Ford WSS-M2C938-A Specification: Ford WSS-M2C924-A Specification: Ford M2C922-A1 Specification: Ford M2C202-B Specification: Ford M2C195-A Specification: Chrysler ATF+3/+4 Specification: BMW LT-71141 Specification: BMW LA-2634 Specification: BMW ETL 7045 E Specification: ATF Dexron III H Specification: Allision TES 389 Specification: Allision TES 295 Specification: Allision C-4 Specification: AISIN JWS 3314 Specification: AISIN JWS 3309 Colour: Red

Being able to display that having a certain manufacturers approval is a red herring...oil suppliers have to pay for that. Oils are not usually tested as such, just the data sheet for the oil shows it meets the relevant spec...and the oil company considers it to be commercially viable to pay.

If you cross reference the ZF spec. against their list of lubricants, you will see that many product groups overlap. At the end of the day, ATF is a hydraulic fluid with friction modifiers, anti-wear and anti-foaming characteristics.

https://aftermarket.zf.com/go/en/afterm ... ubricants/

All manufacturers of electronic boxes use proportional torque converter lockup, normally from open to fully locked. The torque converter will be from approx 96%-98% efficient, with the friction clutch taking it to the 100% locked status, depending on engine load and engine/gearbox speed matching.

The gear change clutch packs suffer more wear due to going from 0% to 100% locked at every gear change, including Neutral to Drive, which it is why it is better to leave an auto in drive when sitting for short stops, such as traffic lights. None of the gearbox is turning, the engine power is low and is being absorbed into the ATF as heat due to the torque converter operating in 100% slip mode.

To ensure long auto-gearbox life, change the ATF and filter frequently and ensure the cooler is functioning well.
The ZF HP-20 filter is inaccessible, so increases the risk of a short life. Other manufacturers have accessible filters.
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xantia_v6
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Re: Bought my dream car

Post by xantia_v6 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:05 am

Dieselman wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:47 am


ZF don't make transmission fluid and have passed that over to Bosch.
Be aware, the Mobil product reference given above is actually a BMW specification for the ZF electronic box, not a Mobil part number... Specification: BMW LT-71141

Total are the partnered oil supplier for Citroen, so the original fill would have been Total brand.
The original Citroen training material for the transmission can be downloaded from you will note that on page 7, Citroen state: "Exclusive oil ESSO LT 71141" This is not a Total product, and is not made by Bosch.
Dieselman wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:47 am

You may notice ZF-LifeguardFluid5 is in the below listing, which is the correct fluid for these boxes...per ZF.
That is true, but ZF-LifeguardFluid5 is only specified for a few transmissions, and is actually ESSO LT 71141. It is a clear synthetic oil with a distinctive odour like cats pee.
Dieselman wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:47 am
https://www.bestpartstore.co.uk/citroen ... sion-fluid

Cross refence specifications from another supplier for 9730.AE.

Capacity: 1 l Packing Type: Bottle Specification: ZF TE-ML 17C, 02F Specification: ZF TE-ML 11B, 14C Specification: ZF TE-ML 04D, 14B Specification: ZF LIFEGUARDFLUID 5 Specification: VW G 055 025 Specification: VW G 052 990 Specification: VW G 052 162 Specification: VW G 050 160 Specification: Nissan Matic-D/J/K Specification: MB 236.9 Specification: MB 236.6 Specification: MB 236.11 Specification: MB 236.10 Specification: MB 235.71 Specification: MAN 339 Type V2/Z3 Specification: MAN 339 Type V1/Z2 Specification: Frod Mercon, MerconV Specification: Ford WSS-M2C938-A Specification: Ford WSS-M2C924-A Specification: Ford M2C922-A1 Specification: Ford M2C202-B Specification: Ford M2C195-A Specification: Chrysler ATF+3/+4 Specification: BMW LT-71141 Specification: BMW LA-2634 Specification: BMW ETL 7045 E Specification: ATF Dexron III H Specification: Allision TES 389 Specification: Allision TES 295 Specification: Allision C-4 Specification: AISIN JWS 3314 Specification: AISIN JWS 3309 Colour: Red
There are many oil suppliers who claim that they have products that are replacements for both Dextron and LT71141, but if you compare the look, smell and viscosity, they are nothing like it. I would not trust anything that is not actually approved by ZF (or PSA) for use in this transmission.
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Dieselman
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Re: Bought my dream car

Post by Dieselman » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:14 am

xantia_v6 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:05 am
There are many oil suppliers who claim that they have products that are replacements for both Dextron and LT71141, but if you compare the look, smell and viscosity, they are nothing like it. I would not trust anything that is not actually approved by ZF (or PSA) for use in this transmission.
It is your choice to stick to the paid for approved oil...which is why the manufacturers of those products pay for the approval.

Other manufacturers have also had the same leveraging on products.

Also, other manufacturers have used ATF with the same distinctive aroma. Mercedes 236.9 is one of them, with the "approved" supplier being Fusch.
There are other suppliers of the said products.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

p.s. Thanks for the HP-20 training manual.
92 2.1SED M.RP5740 ECZ Sable Phenicien
92 3.0 V6-24.Rp 5713 EXY Black
92 2.1SD M.RP 5685 ENT Blue Sideral
Prev
90 2.1SD M.RP 5049 EJV Mandarin
92 2.1SD A.RP 5698 EJV Mandarin
94 2.1SD A.RP 6218 ERT Triton Green
91 2.0SI M.RP 5187 EWT White

karuzin
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Re: Bought my dream car

Post by karuzin » Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:15 pm

Thanks for the Citroen training material for the transmission Xantia_V6, I will study it.
I was only thinking today that I haven't seen ESSO anything in Australia for probably 50 years. Then it occurred to me that Fusch might have their equivalent here.
The owners handbook came with the car, but at some stage it got wet and all the pages are stuck together. I've tried everything I can think to unstick them, but nothing has worked. I have gone searching for one on here but I haven't had any luck yet.

xmexclusive
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Re: Bought my dream car

Post by xmexclusive » Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:26 pm

Send me a PM (private message) with your direct email address.
I have scanned copies of all the various years owners manuals.
Give me details of your version (found on the bottom centre of the outside back cover).
File is too large to send through the PM link.

John

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