Ever thought about an electric XM?
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Ever thought about an electric XM?
Hello all!
I've been playing around with the idea of an all electric XM and would hugely appreciate your experience and technical know-how!
So my Dad always wanted an XM back in the '90s. I was born in '87, my family had a BX Estate, then a ZX, and after that we went to a Peugeot 405 Estate.
Anyway, I've always admired these beasts!
It seems a lot of people like their small nippy electric cars, or going for out and out performance (short range doesn't matter if all you fancy is a blast on some b-roads!) but having driven a Tesla, it was the refinement that really attracted me to EV motoring.
There are a couple of companies in the UK who specialise in converting classic cars to electric. Most commonly Beetles and Campers, stuff like that, and it makes a great deal of sense when you think how under powered those cars were. A lot of classics are also quite thirsty and require a lot of engine maintenance.
So I was thinking how cool it would be to give an XM the electric treatment. I mean, it already looks like it's from the future, and already has ride comfort and refinement. I just don't know how feasible it is, which is where I would really appreciate your advice.
So question one is where to put the batteries? I'd most likely be using a fairly small motor up front and I guess there would be some room in the engine bay. But I'd like to use the fuel tank if possible, how big is it and is it a good shape? Is there a spare wheel under the boot floor that I could remove to free up some more battery space?
Question two is about the suspension. If I add a fair amount of extra weight, would I have to modify the suspension at all? Would this be prohibitively difficult? I presume the Estate car is designed to carry heavy loads, but I much prefer the looks of the hatch.
Thirdly the electrics. I hear these have slightly delicate electrics, my current thinking is to rip out as much of the stock electrics as possible and basically work from the ground up with a 12V transformer from the fuel batteries just for the essentials. I have a CNC machine and I'd like to replace most of the dash with custom plates with just a few features, and control these systems with an I-pad under the stereo cover. Do all XMs have electric seats and windows? Would you recommend finding a base spec car and basing the conversion on that? I plan to fully re-trim the interior in the future in any case.
Finally, does anyone know an XM / Citroen specialist in south east England?
Cheers!
Dan
I've been playing around with the idea of an all electric XM and would hugely appreciate your experience and technical know-how!
So my Dad always wanted an XM back in the '90s. I was born in '87, my family had a BX Estate, then a ZX, and after that we went to a Peugeot 405 Estate.
Anyway, I've always admired these beasts!
It seems a lot of people like their small nippy electric cars, or going for out and out performance (short range doesn't matter if all you fancy is a blast on some b-roads!) but having driven a Tesla, it was the refinement that really attracted me to EV motoring.
There are a couple of companies in the UK who specialise in converting classic cars to electric. Most commonly Beetles and Campers, stuff like that, and it makes a great deal of sense when you think how under powered those cars were. A lot of classics are also quite thirsty and require a lot of engine maintenance.
So I was thinking how cool it would be to give an XM the electric treatment. I mean, it already looks like it's from the future, and already has ride comfort and refinement. I just don't know how feasible it is, which is where I would really appreciate your advice.
So question one is where to put the batteries? I'd most likely be using a fairly small motor up front and I guess there would be some room in the engine bay. But I'd like to use the fuel tank if possible, how big is it and is it a good shape? Is there a spare wheel under the boot floor that I could remove to free up some more battery space?
Question two is about the suspension. If I add a fair amount of extra weight, would I have to modify the suspension at all? Would this be prohibitively difficult? I presume the Estate car is designed to carry heavy loads, but I much prefer the looks of the hatch.
Thirdly the electrics. I hear these have slightly delicate electrics, my current thinking is to rip out as much of the stock electrics as possible and basically work from the ground up with a 12V transformer from the fuel batteries just for the essentials. I have a CNC machine and I'd like to replace most of the dash with custom plates with just a few features, and control these systems with an I-pad under the stereo cover. Do all XMs have electric seats and windows? Would you recommend finding a base spec car and basing the conversion on that? I plan to fully re-trim the interior in the future in any case.
Finally, does anyone know an XM / Citroen specialist in south east England?
Cheers!
Dan
Grey Metallic 2.1 Diesel Series 1 Manual - K725 KVG "Dora"
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2014 BMW i3 "The Space Car"
Volvo V50 1.6 diesel "The Mule"
Dark Blue 3.0 V6 Manual conversion (S1 lookalike) - 2000(W) "Boris"
2014 BMW i3 "The Space Car"
Volvo V50 1.6 diesel "The Mule"
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Re: Ever thought about an electric XM?
Hi Dan
The suspension gives a level ride and responds very well to weight changes.
It tends to remain level whatever the load except with an estate if you put a large spare diesel engine behind the rear axle with no balancing load.
The Estate uses larger rear brake disks and slightly higher tyre pressures, no other difference.
The few critical components could be swapped to a car if required.
Steering was a touch lighter than I would have liked.
I think you could retain the full suspension without modification.
Car and estate share the same chassis except the extra 200mm or so added to the estate rear panels.
Fuel tank bolts under the floor pan of the rear seat.
This floor then continues level to the tail gate of both body types.
There is a suspension crosstube under the pan behind the tank then the spare wheel is hung under that floor behind that.
Rear pan area is 155cm by 120cm (car) 180cm by 130cm (estate) with rear wheel centre at 100cm back.
There is no rear cross axle between the rear wheels as the suspension system does not need it.
XM electrics are modular looms that run out of the way for much of what you want to do.
IMHO the problems with electrics were blown out of all proportion.
Get rid of the engine bay stuff and half the problem areas are gone.
Spec of car is unimportant as all are modular and of similar scrap value except the few pampered ones in potential classic condition.
Despite the galvanised chassis panels expect to do some sill repairs because the XM chassis was a Citroen design learning curve.
A few UK XM's got mechanical seat but most are electric.
All XM's had vast amounts of structural glass windows (12) most glued in as part of the chassis integrity.
Up market cars got an extra internal 13th window to keep rear seat passengers warm while the boot was open.
I know a very good independent Citroen specialist in Hampshire.
If you want to look over an XM or need more information let me know.
John
The suspension gives a level ride and responds very well to weight changes.
It tends to remain level whatever the load except with an estate if you put a large spare diesel engine behind the rear axle with no balancing load.
The Estate uses larger rear brake disks and slightly higher tyre pressures, no other difference.
The few critical components could be swapped to a car if required.
Steering was a touch lighter than I would have liked.
I think you could retain the full suspension without modification.
Car and estate share the same chassis except the extra 200mm or so added to the estate rear panels.
Fuel tank bolts under the floor pan of the rear seat.
This floor then continues level to the tail gate of both body types.
There is a suspension crosstube under the pan behind the tank then the spare wheel is hung under that floor behind that.
Rear pan area is 155cm by 120cm (car) 180cm by 130cm (estate) with rear wheel centre at 100cm back.
There is no rear cross axle between the rear wheels as the suspension system does not need it.
XM electrics are modular looms that run out of the way for much of what you want to do.
IMHO the problems with electrics were blown out of all proportion.
Get rid of the engine bay stuff and half the problem areas are gone.
Spec of car is unimportant as all are modular and of similar scrap value except the few pampered ones in potential classic condition.
Despite the galvanised chassis panels expect to do some sill repairs because the XM chassis was a Citroen design learning curve.
A few UK XM's got mechanical seat but most are electric.
All XM's had vast amounts of structural glass windows (12) most glued in as part of the chassis integrity.
Up market cars got an extra internal 13th window to keep rear seat passengers warm while the boot was open.
I know a very good independent Citroen specialist in Hampshire.
If you want to look over an XM or need more information let me know.
John
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Re: Ever thought about an electric XM?
John,
Thanks so much for your help! This is looking do-able. I've been looking into AC motors with direct drive, one I'm looking at has 90hp / 180ft lbs of torque. If I'm reading this right I could mate that to an electric Smart ForTwo drivetrain and use 20KWh of Tesla / Nissan Leaf battery packs which should be good for a range of about 50 miles. I'll share any bits and pieces I discover on this thread in case anyone is interested in the design process.
Where do you suppose is the best place to find a solid phase 1 donor car with a knackered engine / gearbox? Should I be looking at auctions or scrap yards? Nothing much is coming up online! Perhaps I will visit that specialist you mentioned and see if they can point me in the right direction
Thanks again!
Dan
Thanks so much for your help! This is looking do-able. I've been looking into AC motors with direct drive, one I'm looking at has 90hp / 180ft lbs of torque. If I'm reading this right I could mate that to an electric Smart ForTwo drivetrain and use 20KWh of Tesla / Nissan Leaf battery packs which should be good for a range of about 50 miles. I'll share any bits and pieces I discover on this thread in case anyone is interested in the design process.
Where do you suppose is the best place to find a solid phase 1 donor car with a knackered engine / gearbox? Should I be looking at auctions or scrap yards? Nothing much is coming up online! Perhaps I will visit that specialist you mentioned and see if they can point me in the right direction
Thanks again!
Dan
Grey Metallic 2.1 Diesel Series 1 Manual - K725 KVG "Dora"
Dark Blue 3.0 V6 Manual conversion (S1 lookalike) - 2000(W) "Boris"
2014 BMW i3 "The Space Car"
Volvo V50 1.6 diesel "The Mule"
Dark Blue 3.0 V6 Manual conversion (S1 lookalike) - 2000(W) "Boris"
2014 BMW i3 "The Space Car"
Volvo V50 1.6 diesel "The Mule"
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Re: Ever thought about an electric XM?
Hi Dinkley, welcome to the forum.
I think you'd be hard pushed to find a solid car, rust is the biggest killer of an XM.
Also, take a look at this... https://youtu.be/j2vsXvLoxuk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think you'd be hard pushed to find a solid car, rust is the biggest killer of an XM.
Also, take a look at this... https://youtu.be/j2vsXvLoxuk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1993 Citroen XM 2.1 turboSD auto
1995 Citroen XM 2.1TD Auto EXCLUSIVE
1995 Citroen XM 2.1TD Auto EXCLUSIVE
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Re: Ever thought about an electric XM?
Hi Dan
You may be targeting the wrong version of the XM.
Phase 1 cars are much more attractive as collectors items and also nearer classic status.
Phase 2 cars and all estates often tend to be treated as end of life bangers.
For what you intend to do many of the differences will be altered anyway.
There are roughly twice as many XM's on SORN as on the road.
Total numbers UK are currently around 700 last quarter if I remember correctly.
Most of these SORN ones are kept believing they will be restored and kept as classics.
No Citroen dealer holds XM's, even when new they were never held in quantity.
I think much of the unreliability reputation was built on poor and expensive dealer response to faults and failures
Only a very few Citroen Indys now deal in XM's and that as the occasional car.
Those that do, find some spares difficult to source so XM's tend to block workshops.
Currently the Indy I mentioned sees three a year for MOT and usually a small repair wish list.
While Ray is right to mention the rust issue I think it could be dealt with as part of your project.
The amount of stripping you need to do should give easy access to all the known regular rust areas.
For example passenger sill is difficult and expensive because of the fuel lines.
In the main the XM rusts from inside the hidden cavities as the shell is made up of multiple pressed sections.
Once sorted as a whole chassis it should be good for another 15 to 20 years.
What usually scraps XM's is needing regular expensive small patch repairs over a series of years.
If you want to look over a later XM then contact me.
John
You may be targeting the wrong version of the XM.
Phase 1 cars are much more attractive as collectors items and also nearer classic status.
Phase 2 cars and all estates often tend to be treated as end of life bangers.
For what you intend to do many of the differences will be altered anyway.
There are roughly twice as many XM's on SORN as on the road.
Total numbers UK are currently around 700 last quarter if I remember correctly.
Most of these SORN ones are kept believing they will be restored and kept as classics.
No Citroen dealer holds XM's, even when new they were never held in quantity.
I think much of the unreliability reputation was built on poor and expensive dealer response to faults and failures
Only a very few Citroen Indys now deal in XM's and that as the occasional car.
Those that do, find some spares difficult to source so XM's tend to block workshops.
Currently the Indy I mentioned sees three a year for MOT and usually a small repair wish list.
While Ray is right to mention the rust issue I think it could be dealt with as part of your project.
The amount of stripping you need to do should give easy access to all the known regular rust areas.
For example passenger sill is difficult and expensive because of the fuel lines.
In the main the XM rusts from inside the hidden cavities as the shell is made up of multiple pressed sections.
Once sorted as a whole chassis it should be good for another 15 to 20 years.
What usually scraps XM's is needing regular expensive small patch repairs over a series of years.
If you want to look over a later XM then contact me.
John
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Re: Ever thought about an electric XM?
Picking up on John's suggestions of a S2, you could keep an eye open for an unwanted 2.5 . . . not that I'm suggesting seeing another one cannibalised . . . but because (a) the electrics on them is extremely well documented (see Gabor's Circuit Diagram Project latest pdf on here), and (b) the variations over time (1995-2000 for the 2.5) on the car's build/fittings/fixtures were much fewer than for 2.0 & 3.0 petrols, and 2.1 diesels, which will save you lots of time amassing complicated documentation.
You are going to need decent documentation (electrical, hydraulic) in order to remove unwanted stuff, and preserve the working functions of other parts (suspension, steering, brakes, lighting, locking...).
If you look on FCF (French Car Forum), there have been some interesting links there to a couple of UK websites and companies that are involved in converting classic cars to electric, and supplying kits and components for doing this. Some of the linked blogs go into minute detail of how conversions were done. A couple of the current threads on FCF relate directly to all-electric cars and transport.
Keep us informed!
Was mulling over the other day about which would be the better car to convert - BX or XM? Both offer self-levelling comfort. BX has the merit of relative simplicity, and a kerb weight (with the old power unit) of just 900kg+, where XM is about 1500+. However, as you've discovered, XM has the ability to accommodate carried weight without even batting an eyelid, and is structurally far more rigid. It also, as you say, has the "lust over" factor!
You are going to need decent documentation (electrical, hydraulic) in order to remove unwanted stuff, and preserve the working functions of other parts (suspension, steering, brakes, lighting, locking...).
If you look on FCF (French Car Forum), there have been some interesting links there to a couple of UK websites and companies that are involved in converting classic cars to electric, and supplying kits and components for doing this. Some of the linked blogs go into minute detail of how conversions were done. A couple of the current threads on FCF relate directly to all-electric cars and transport.
Keep us informed!
Was mulling over the other day about which would be the better car to convert - BX or XM? Both offer self-levelling comfort. BX has the merit of relative simplicity, and a kerb weight (with the old power unit) of just 900kg+, where XM is about 1500+. However, as you've discovered, XM has the ability to accommodate carried weight without even batting an eyelid, and is structurally far more rigid. It also, as you say, has the "lust over" factor!
Chris
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003
1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive RP7165 Polar White
1992 BX19D Millesime RP5800 Sable
1989 BX19RD Delage Red Deceased; 1998 ZX 1.9D Avantage auto Triton Green Company car 1998..2001; 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto Wicked Red Company car 2001..2003
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Re: Ever thought about an electric XM?
Thanks for the information and encouragement guys! I completely understand it would be very sad to see a pristine example cannibalised. I am an electric guitar enthusiast and it just kills me to seen original examples from the '50s and '60s retrofitted with all kinds of madness in the '80s.
You are right Chris, it is that lust factor! From my point if view if I'm going to pour a good year and £15k plus into a £2k car, I might as well wait for exactly the one I want. It's mostly the dashboard and steering wheel that attracts me to the older cars. It's just more in keeping with the aesthetics of the vehicle overall.
You are right Chris, it is that lust factor! From my point if view if I'm going to pour a good year and £15k plus into a £2k car, I might as well wait for exactly the one I want. It's mostly the dashboard and steering wheel that attracts me to the older cars. It's just more in keeping with the aesthetics of the vehicle overall.
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Dark Blue 3.0 V6 Manual conversion (S1 lookalike) - 2000(W) "Boris"
2014 BMW i3 "The Space Car"
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Re: Ever thought about an electric XM?
That rules out offering a 2.5 Estate then.
John
John
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Re: Ever thought about an electric XM?
Cheers for the offer, John! I had no idea there were that few around... but like you said, the SORN cars are out there somewhere, and a handful might even have the wife on at them about getting that thing out of the shed! Maybe I'll put a wanted ad out and see what comes back.
I'm surprised spares are so hard to come by, what's compatibility like between LHD and RHD cars? Would it be wise to take a few day trips to France and slowly fill your garage? Haha!
I'm surprised spares are so hard to come by, what's compatibility like between LHD and RHD cars? Would it be wise to take a few day trips to France and slowly fill your garage? Haha!
Grey Metallic 2.1 Diesel Series 1 Manual - K725 KVG "Dora"
Dark Blue 3.0 V6 Manual conversion (S1 lookalike) - 2000(W) "Boris"
2014 BMW i3 "The Space Car"
Volvo V50 1.6 diesel "The Mule"
Dark Blue 3.0 V6 Manual conversion (S1 lookalike) - 2000(W) "Boris"
2014 BMW i3 "The Space Car"
Volvo V50 1.6 diesel "The Mule"
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Re: Ever thought about an electric XM?
I've been thinking of this...because of another project I've got all the powertrain off a 2014 Nissan Leaf if you need it