Considering a V6 - but what about Battlescar?? advice please

[jorgy]

Hi Geoff

The auto gearbox issue is as Dean says, fact (and therefore problem) is that most XMs are likely to be high mileage now, and if the box hasn't been serviced properly, you're entering the high risk area. If you do extensive work on your own on the car, it can turn out to be a very simple repair, however if you don't (like me), an autobox "specialist" will want a dear amount of money -manyfold to doing a clutch change, if I'm not wrong. And, unfortunately, looking at the gearbox oil before you buy the car will not tell much for how it's lived before that last oil change. Obviously all these issues are expected from someone that writes in such a forum, so nothing dramatic here...owning an XM or any car as old as an XM is a plain proof you are ready to accept all this risk...

My mpg with my own manual 12v PRV was about 23 doing 70-80mph on motorway, however Citroen says about 28-30 afair for this sort of use, and I've been suspecting for a while now that my lamda sensor may be old and slow -I'll put a new one as soon as I do the next bit of work on the engine. So better if someone else can tell how much their auto 12v is doing -it's nearest to what you'll probably be buying (there *were* manual 12v in the UK but they are rare like.....)

In Germany (I bought mine overthere), 12v V6 PRV XMs go for ridiculous prices (like, 200eu), and there are plenty (compared to the UK) and of both guises (auto + manual). Another difference is that LHD PRVs all have the DIRAVI steering (which is quite better than the conventional one). Also, in the continent the later PSA 24v 60 degree V was offered with a manual gearbox -this is about as fast as the PRV 24v.

Now to find a V6...Could take u some time!

cheers
G

[Jan-hendrik]

Dont listen to the scare mungering, the boxes are fine.

I am very pleased to see this statement by someone who knows what he is talking about

[xmexclusive]

George makes the point about XM V6's being available with manual boxes.
I think that there were quite a few UK Mk1 PRV manuals.
I think these used the same ME5 box that the Mk1 24v XM used.
The early Mk2 V6 manuals used the PRV engine with the MG5 box.
The later Mk2 V6 manual used the ESJ4 engine and the ML5 box.
Conversion of a UK car is not impossible.
All 3 types of box are available secondhand in the UK as they were all used on other cars.
The MG5 box is fitted to 2.5TD XM's though ratios might need a bit of work.
The ML5 box was used by PSA in a number of PUG V6's.
Repair or replacing like for like the autobox is the easiest option but as the XM moves to classic status
someone might well want to own a unique RHD Mk2 V6 manual as an example of one of the models Citroen never built.
A few years ago I was working along similar lines collecting the cars and bits to match a 4HP20 to a 2.5TD.
That all that went when the landlord forced a clearout around my unit.

John

[citroenxm]

I think these used the same ME5 box that the Mk1 24v XM used.

Yes John, its THE Same box, thats why I got excited when MTXM did end up saving a 12v V6 Manual, however, he has a 12v Manual of his own now, so he wants to keep it... Prehaps that breakers with the 24v Manual needs the gearbox rescuing from it, but unfortunally, its too far away from me...

I know the 12v and 24v use the same manual box (when fitted to the 12v) as I had a black manual 12v that had been converted from manual, and it had a 24v manual box fitted to it.

As for UK manual V6 XM's they were only issued on G and H 1989 and 1990, as a standard fit, before the auto was offered, then I think most buyers then decided a Big Cruiser, V6 engine should have an auto box, in which most were auto. Of course John, you have the documentation to tell you what option there were... but does any one actually know whats in the UK??

Paul

[xmexclusive]

Hi Paul

The MG5 box also fits the PRV.
Got lots of them, gives you a hydraulic clutch as well.
Will look up the gear ratios to see what fits.
Also got a ML5 box here somewhere that was mated to a PUG V6 24v.

John

[citroenxm]

Oooooooo excitment John.... the ML5 DOES interest me very much... You dont happen to habe the engine still attahced to it do you??




Paul

[xmexclusive]

No he had already sold that.

John

[jorgy]

Hi Paul

The MG5 box also fits the PRV.
Got lots of them, gives you a hydraulic clutch as well.
John

Where from would this take feed? From the "mains" or from a dedicated pump?

I thought the clutch of my V6 (not hydraulic) was heavy till I got my 21td!! Last time I drove the V6, for the first few gear changes I almost planted the pedal into the floor I'm rather inclined to think my 21td is abnormally hard.

For the story, the 5th on my manual box (pr6336 car) became noisy at around 155k miles -I can imagine this XM having spent its life going up and down German autobahns-. My usual indy repaired it with all in situ (accessing from the wheelside), they changed a couple of cogs+bearings and it was good again for about 3 hundred quid.

cheers
G

[xmexclusive]

Hi George

The MG5 and the ML5 both have closed circuit hydraulic clutches. Pump is added to the standard XM foot pedal assembly.
PSA produced 3 different designs of hydraulic clutch over the production life but the differences only really matter if you try and mix and match bits.
If recovering a box with a hydraulic clutch then it makes sense to recover the entire clutch drive as well including the foot pedals.
Then everything will match. Citroen started with a fully sealed unit then moved to a bleedable one, they also used 3 different push rod lengths.
As part of the NOS buying habit of mine I have bought as spares some clutch kits including a Mk 2 V6 one.
To decide on that I compared the PRV/MG5 with the 2.5TD/MG5 set ups.
All the components are identical except for the specification of the friction material on the clutch plate.
The small difference in friction material spec is presumably to match the higher revving of the V6 compared to the higher torque of the 2.5TD.
For Mk1 and Mk2 XM's there is also a difference in friction plate size.
The Mk1 V6 ME5 box uses a 238mm friction plate. The Mk2 MG5 & ML5 boxes use a 242mm friction plate.
I suspect that friction area difference between Mk1 and Mk2 is far greater than the difference between the friction types in the Mk2's.
Paul has a spare Mk2 PRV engine and also one of my spare 2.5 MG boxes. We hope one of these days to physically check that the two fit together.
Not expecting significant problems. If the MG fits the Mk2 PRV then it should also fit the Mk1 PRV.
One of these days I will tabulate out the gear ratios for all the options.

John

[Dieselman]

I'm rather inclined to think my 21td is abnormally hard.

Good exercise for the left leg though Jorgy...

Yours is abnormally heavy, mine is nice and light now I've fitted a new clutch.