A sign of the times?

[Peter.N.]

http://cars.trovit.co.uk/index.php/cod. ... ign=search

[davoxx]

a sign of people trying to sell them for higher prices ... i'm not sure how many actually sell for those higher prices ...

[Peter.N.]

I was thinking more about the ones that were being sold fpr scrap.

Peter

[davoxx]

oh, my bad , page is not loading for me fully, i just saw the chart with the average price on it.

damn chrome is blocking the ads, it's not meant to do that

those xms are probably rust buckets or require hard to get spares?

[xmexclusive]

The silver 2.1 estate is stated as having cill rust problems.
It has been offered a number of times over the last year or so.
It is long term SORN (4 years) and has been slowly working down from around £500.
I think I remember comments along the lines of "I know its value" and "Going to scrap if not bought" in the early ebay ads.
As I covered recently in an inappropriately targeted reply to another post there are a wide range of XM's by condition and value.
There are three distinct markets and pricing structures for XM's all fully justified.
The problem is the 3 types of buyer and the 3 standards of XM all get mixed up in the advertising and selling process.
Many of the sellers both traders and private place higher than justified often through ignorance of the real market.
Just a few traders have the history, reputation and resources to buy, sort and sell on good XM's at very high prices.
Some private individuals parting with a much loved and expensively maintained XM expect the same prices and are usually dissappointed.
A good number of the buyers want high quality, well maintained cars at scrap prices.
They too are usually dissappointed either by failing to buy or obtaining a pristinely polished and cleaned money pit.
We often purpetuate these missmatches on here.
Take scrap cars for example. This is typically quoted as around £200 plus for an XM.
The £200 is actually the price paid on a good day by a scrapyard for a car when delivered to them.
In practice time and money spent to deliver it will cost you at least £100 if you had to pay for it.
Now if you cannot deliver the car you will be lucky to get £20 from the man with the Hyab lorry that collects you immobile heap.
He may even try to charge you for the privilage if there is no real competition in the area.
So you break it and ebay the spares expecting to make £300 or so.
Sales usually turn out quite a bit down on that which is dissappointing.
Sods Law says that most people will want working versions of the broken bits on your car.
They may take a quite a bit more convincing about spares for the working bits even when you want to give them away.
Pulling the bits off, wrapping them up and posting them is a real chore.
Even if you can hide the wreck behind the shed it will probably cause you severe ear ache.

Hi Davoxx

Sorry I think you are painting the whole range one colour with the same paint stoke. Nearer black than white too.
Many of the expensive cars do eventually find buyers at or near asking and that type of owner often finds them good value.
Much of the crap takes an age for financial reality to land it in the scrap yard.
In between some crap sells well, some gems go to scrap.
That comes under the headings of "buyer beware" and "a fool and his money".
A few of us invest a lot of time and effort to capture a few of the gems in the form of cars and parts.
You will not see that time and effort costed here but you only have to look at the detail of many of the postings to see its actual value.
Do not expect the top of the range cars/prices to reduce or dissappear more likely they will follow DS's and CX's upwards.
The volume of the remaining XM's is reducing dramatically having halved in the last two years.
The gems have reduced even faster and the cost of the work to return them to top of the range doubled in the same time frame.
Dare I suggest that look very carefully but buy now while there are still some gems at scrap prices.
Do not expect a free ride. Also be prepared to pay to maintain and improve that XM.

John

[onthecut]

Hate to say it, but I'm not at all sure that the XM is 'special' enough to really make it into the proper collectible, definite value for a given age and spec. market. I notice that some of the offerings at silly money from the Ebay garage that has high price ones are over 100k on the clock --- well that's certainly not my idea of investment territory. Having now owned and run XMs for the teens of years -- and thoroughly appreciated their qualities -- I'm not immune to their failings, either. The 2.1s are prone to head gasket failure and a serious grief job to mend; the 2.5 have gearbox and clutch change issues among other gremlins; the 3.0 ltr.versions aren't really quick enough to make the fuel consumption and maintenance downsides worth the cost and the bog standard 2.0 ltr petrol, apart from the XM ride and space qualities isn't going to set many pulses racing.

My perception of the 'classic' car market is that essentially it is split into two parts ---- those vehicles that command a genuine premium on the grounds of innovation, performance, scarcity, iconic status, and those that command some premium simply on the grounds that they have survived when most of their contemporaries haven't. In this scenario,it is entirely correct that the DS scores highly, as it was both innovative and became highly iconic, whereas it might be argued that the XM is just a watering down, in effect, of a 40 year old idea. Leaving aside the overpriced (as I see it) listings, most XMs are out there for the same kind of money as Vauxhall Vivas, Triumph saloons and tired Jaguars of a certain era.

For my part, aside from the XM, I use a Land Rover for work and have no doubts about spending whatever it needs to keep it right as when I come to sell, the price will reflect the attention given to it --- something, sadly, I can't say about the XM.

Mike.

[robert_e_smart]

Its an interesting one Mike.

DS and 2CVs and to a lesser extent Traction Avants attract enthusiasts that are only interested in that particular model of car for many of the reasons that you have given above. They are not Citroen enthusiasts per se, just enthusiastic about the particular car that they have. For the Citroen enthusiasts, they may want to have a small selection of different Citroen cars from an era in time that appeals to their nostalgic thoughts. Others will move between different cars almost on a whim depending on varying factors, mainly if something else catches their eye, or they get made an offer they can't refuse for their car.

People buy them for different reasons. Some people just want to have one as a classic for nostalgia reasons etc, or they have always admired one, and were never brave enough to buy one when they were current cars.

Its hard to know what way the Xm will go in classic circles in the future. I have met different people that want a nice good value Xm as a fairly low risk purchase so that they can experience the Xm for a while, and they will then sell it on, and chase after their next whim.

There is a small market for them, and dedicated followers as well who run their cars in different ways, either home maintenance, through to buying a well fettled car that appear on e-bay with a large price premium.

Classic car demographics are changing too, as more and more younger people join the classic car scene earlier, a lot more 80's and early 90's cars are appearing at events. Granted some are really iconic cars like the original Audi Quattro and the likes, but it always amazes me how many people stop and chat to owners of cars that aren't in the typical classic car spectrum; Citroen BX for example.

[Peter.N.]

I have enjoyed driving XMs for 15 years or more but I am afraid mine are coming to the end of thier lives now, I still have the red and white estates on the road at the moment but both the MOTs expire about June and I really don't know if I can afford to keep them running any longer should they fail.

Finding a suitable replacement is a nightmare, most modern cars seem to have concrete springs except for the C5 which has niether the build quality or durability of the XM. I need a manual estate with ride comfort, the only one I have come up with so far is surprisingly the Rover 75 which of course has nothing like the space of the XM - but my wife says we don't need it now as I don't carry as much DIY stuff as I used to.

Anyway, don't delete me yet I still have two runners at the moment

Peter

[onthecut]

Robert .

As you say, no hard and fast rules about what and why people choose particular vehicles. I think it is fair to say though, that plainly some models attract sufficient interest to sustain a relatively stable market, where a degree of consistent assessment may be made over value, plus the growth of an aftermarket parts supply chain. Leaving aside top drawer exotics, I'm thinking things like MGB, Minor, Triumph TR, certain Jaguars etc. I think achieved price is an important factor -- there has to be a perception that the car in question is a reasonably sound bet rather than just a short term, quirky toy. I look at CX prices and predominantly they are firmly rooted in banger territory and I have a feeling the XM will follow the same path. Obviously there will be the odd exception, but I just don't see a consistent, strong trend toward 'classic' status. Look at tha Xantia Activa --- arguably the pinnacle of Citroen's suspension innovations and often as not, they are just a few hundred pounds and pretty much unknown to anyone outside Citroen land.

I'm also curious about the current and upcoming generations of classic car enthusiats. Young motorists of today have grown up with vehicles that generally so outperform the ones I grew up with they barely recognise them as cars at all, plus I think they have rather more of a 'white goods' mentality toward them. Sure, they like fast and stylish, but they actually do mean fast -- not fast relative to something even slower ! Ah well -- time will tell.

Peter.

Shouldn't say so on here, but what about a Xantia estate ? I've seen some cracking buys lately, often with modest miles and I have come to think the later ones were a serously well put together bit of kit.

Mike.

[Dean]

Shouldn't say so on here, but what about a Xantia estate ? I've seen some cracking buys lately, often with modest miles and I have come to think the later ones were a serously well put together bit of kit.

Sound advise, the xant is just as good as the 406 but you get proper suspension and they are cheaper than the pug usualy, parts are very easy to come by too when compared to the XM.
How is your 406 going anyway Peter, thought you were happy with it?

D