Some choice xm images....

[jorgy]

Going back to the 908 A pillar..... reminds me of the old American cars with those large wrap around screens and a pillars almost in reverse,

True, they've done it! Hadn't crossed my mind at all. I just didn't go so further back in time.

[jorgy]

The Peugeot concept shown above is bloated and it´s even painted black which reduces the impression of bloat. Painted in a pale colour it would resemble a whale.

Hmmm...I'm the first to dislike modern bloated cars, but I wouldn't say this one is particularly bloated, and then, it has the length to carry the bloating... Could you quote examples of 2-3 favourite designs of yours (of the last 30 years or so)?

[russ92xmsed]

You get a fillet on the feature line that collides with a flat area of the wheel arch and the resultant surfaces have to be forced to merge.

After 4 pages of designery stuff my brain was hurting, so much so that after the above I took my brain out and gave it a good kicking around the back garden.It was a lot less bruised after this and instead of trying to understand statements like the above* I just gave in and looked at the pics. You see if you give me a blank piece of paper I promise that a hour later I'll give you it back . . . blank.

My interest in modern cars is absolutely not about the design of the exterior, not even about the design of the interior, but about how easy is it to mend, how much are the parts, how much does it cost to run, and how easy is it going to be to sell at a price that will make me a happy bunny.

I'll leave you designer types to rattle on . . .




*No personal insult intended, your comment was just the straw that broke the camels back amongst many design statements that meant nothing to me.

True, when you try to put it in writting, it's so tricky to word -I think the person writting the quoted sentence said so too! 1 image is worth a 1000 words, says chinese popular wisdom, they're spot on!

The rules of aesthetics is something that has always drawn my attention -talking of any type of object, not just cars. With the XM, I have a problem, because lately I find my brain is getting stuck with its shape, getting really fixated on it, I'm worried, honestly. It's like, every morning I *need* to see this wedge. I used to like a variety of cars+shapes!

It is difficult trying to describe car aesthetics efficiently! Thats why designers are better at drawing what they want to describe or show, than writing it. I am very much like that. We're also tend to have a higher rate of dyslexia apparently.

I know what you mean Jorgy, the XM shape is starting to pollute and dictate how i think a car should look! The XM is not perfect by any means, but comparing it to modern cars which park next to mine, it looks so much better. Cleaner, better proportioned. I had a new 208 parked in front of it yesterday. Incredible how big and bloated the 208 looked.

Going back briefly to the 908 concept. What bugs me most about it is the overly large round rear wings and the bumper which sticks out at the bottom and slopes back into the design. For me, bumpers look better and less heavy if they tuck back under the car. like the XM!!!...

[casalingua]

That´s a good question. That way you can see what I have in mind. I tried to answer the question last night with a list of cars but when the posting failed and all I was left with was an empty, white box to retype my message I gave up.

Two or three cars of the last 30 years is a harder list to write than 10-20 cars.

My list has on it the Renault Avantime and the Opel Omega 'A' which two cars are markedly, violently different from one another in almost all ways. If I add the last Honda Prelude and the Fiat Multipla (pre-facelift) we now have a list of one saloon, a sports coupe, an MPV and a large, flamboyant hatchback. Is that really an informative list? I´ve chosen these cars on the basis that their design ethos is properly executed and interesting in itself.

If I add a car to the list I can find a middle ground between the Opel and the Avantime: a Renault 25. Look carefully at the Series 1 R25 and you find a rigorous form language, as consistently applied and thought-through as on an Audi 100 of the same time but nicer. It´s a very rational big, French hatchback. Or I could add the Opel Signum to the last. It was also neatly styled and possessed of a good package. It´s an idiosyncratic German car.

Here´s another pair: the 1978-1988 Saab 900 and the Ford Focus Mk 2, series 1. The Saab has an identity all its own and I never tire of looking at them. It´s quite obvious why it´s an interesting car: the wraparound windshield, the tailgate treatment, the shoulder on the body side that flows into the c-pillar and the interior is great: Spartan yet inviting. The Focus is a car I disliked at first. I thought it was sterile. Actually it seems to be really, really subtle and just gets better as the years go by. It looks billet-solid and well-resolved. It is hard to put into words what they did; all I can do is point out the tension between the fullness of the main surfaces (how curved they are) and the sharpness of the main creases and folds. Mercedes haven´t done a car as austerely, formally correct since the 80s. Audi now does that line and they do it pretty well. Mercedes are as devoid of worthwhile content as most Toyotas.

And the rest of my laundry list: 1991-1998 Opel Astra (nicer to look at than a Golf), 1998-2005 Ford Focus, 1985 Mercedes W-124 E-class, 1999 Honda HRV (look at the wheel arch treatment), 1987 Alfa Romeo 164, 2003 Alfa Romeo 166 (the facelifted one), 1998 Volvo S80, 1994 Audi A6 (C4) and 1997 Audi A6 (look at the roofline, and the tail lamps and the boot lid), 2002-2008 Nissan Cube, 1993 Peugeot 306 saloon, 1995-2002 Renault Megane estate.

[Dieselman]

Wordy: that would be me. I like writing about this kind of thing. People are free to move on as soon as their eyes glaze.

Writing on forums is like having a conversation.

Do people really keep prattling on when their listener visibly glazes over, or do they take the hint?

[casalingua]

Writing on forums is also not like a conversation. One, the parties aren´t in the same place. Two, they are not communicating in real time. And they are like a conversation in that even if you´re bored sometimes it´s probably bad manners to show it.

As I said, you don´t have to read it whereas when someone is speaking in person, you do have to listen and the listener can see the other person´s response. There is no visual hint in a written exchange.

[jorgy]

I know what you mean Jorgy, the XM shape is starting to pollute and dictate how i think a car should look! The XM is not perfect by any means, but comparing it to modern cars which park next to mine, it looks so much better. Cleaner, better proportioned. I had a new 208 parked in front of it yesterday. Incredible how big and bloated the 208 looked.

I think what we're experiencing must be a common phenomenon when one immerses more (?) than he should in a given context. You can see it happening all the time with car designers, in Citroen too -was characteristic how some internal teams for some period had become so fixated on the CX lines that they couldn't design anything else that didn't look like an updated CX. I remember many of the offerings coming from the internal studio being really completely unimaginative. It can be a serious malady, this.

[jorgy]

That´s a good question. That way you can see what I have in mind. I tried to answer the question last night with a list of cars but when the posting failed and all I was left with was an empty, white box to retype my message I gave up.

Two or three cars of the last 30 years is a harder list to write than 10-20 cars.

My list has on it ....

I think I can see what you mean, you like designs that have been thought as one piece, holistically, and not as a bunch of add-ons. Also, further to that, designs that have been well detailed in getting the proportions of everything right. It made sense reading your list, till I read..."Pug 306 salloon" Don't know why, maybe because I was first used to the hatch version, but I consider it a very ugly car -can't see it as anything else than a hatch where they later added a boot because there was a market for it. This 306 makes me feel like all these "small" salloon cars that are commonly made for emerging economies, if you see what I mean. If you had said e.g. Pug 405 instead, I'd fully agree... Are you sure you meant to type "306"

[jorgy]

Wordy: that would be me. I like writing about this kind of thing. People are free to move on as soon as their eyes glaze.

Writing on forums is like having a conversation.

Do people really keep prattling on when their listener visibly glazes over, or do they take the hint?

I have to say I appreciate alot everything that's been posted (text, photos) on the 7 pages of this thread.

[jorgy]

I love looking at these cars......they are so beautiful and yes...I love them on wheel trims sorry Paul

That's my favorite I think. Am I right that it never originally existed as such? i.e. coded bumpers with those wheels?